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Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Athelstone, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. LOst

    LOst

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    <!--quoteo(post=411284:date=Feb 16 2010, 09:47 PM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Feb 16 2010, 09:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411284">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the issue is that people no longer feel involved or "up to speed" with the project's development, and as such miss voicing out on key engine decisions. Nobody says you have to take collective input as law, but it would far more beneficial to at least somewhat involve the community in these decisions, given that it's a community project.

    If you have no interest in letting the community have an actual say in the game's development and instead opt to do everything in private outside of take potential contributions, then I have no idea why this game is within this forum section. Your use of this community's resources is not to be picked and chosen as you please.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You are not missing out on anything, I can assure you that everything made with S2HD will be reviewed by the community, and changed if needed.
    The problem is, the people in charge of the project doesn't want an endless discussion about subjects needed to get the project running.

    Once we have all the components needed (meaning no placeholders that can bring the quality of this project down), we can start doing the releases. And let me tell you what an Alpha release means to this project:

    Nothing is final until the Beta releases. If people don't like where the Alpha has headed, we just follow the general opinion and change it so that the most will be satisfied. Changes however will take time. The previos change of making S2HD cross platorm is still in progress. If it was't for the major opinion of having S2HD run on Linux and Mac OS X, we would have had Sonic 2 HD out a long time ago! Resources are being worked on as you suggest them! Like computer requirements being lowered.

    I am very proud of the direction we have taken, as it directly follows what people wanted in the first place.

    There are two things you can do right now to support S2HD:

    1. Leave you suggestions, and the staff will read them, and implement them, AT THEIR free time.
    2. Do the work yourself, and speed up the development, AT YOUR free time. Help us!


    This forum is the key to S2HD's success, and will always be. Without it, the project is lost.
     
  2. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    Well, in this case I'll just repeat myself and say that the prioritary aspect ratio should be 4:3 and not 16:9.
    Just like every other "additional feature" such as new animation frames and so on, the extended X resolution shouldn't be one of the priorities in this recreation. Sonic 2 was a 4:3 game, S2HD 1.0 should be a 4:3 game. Once this version has been pulled off and it works fine you can start adding whatever you want, smoother animations, a level editor, playable Big the Cat, support for 16:9, and whatnot.
    This isn't a secondary thing because as it has been pointed out the boss arenas would need to be modified to work in 16:9, and that's additional work. So please stick to good old 4:3 for the time being, 1280 x <strike>896</strike> 960 is the way to go.

    However a poll might be a wise idea at this point since this discussion about the aspect ratio is taking a prevalent part of the programming thread... That is, if you really are interested into people's opinion.
     
  3. GerbilSoft

    GerbilSoft

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    <!--quoteo(post=411291:date=Feb 16 2010, 01:11 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Feb 16 2010, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411291">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it was't for the major opinion of having S2HD run on Linux and Mac OS X, we would have had Sonic 2 HD out a long time ago!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Nice flat-out lie you've got right there. The only major changes needed for having it run on those two OSes are the use of cross-platform video, audio, and input APIs. And considering you already have an OpenGL renderer, using OpenAL for audio and SDL for input isn't that hard to do.

    <!--quoteo(post=411291:date=Feb 16 2010, 01:11 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Feb 16 2010, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411291">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Do the work yourself, and speed up the development, AT YOUR free time. Help us!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sure. Where's the source code?
     
  4. Every so often there is a disgruntled individual who tries to derail the project, perhaps unintentionally... Then a bunch of others jump on board, these actions are really the greatest threat to the project. I admit that it would be nice to see more of what is going on behind the scenes, but given the nature of this project and the plethora of hardliner opinions regarding its direction and development, I think the staff has been doing a GREAT JOB. Their method of management has been that of compassionate authoritative, and they certainly have been doing a better job then the vast majority of us could. It is their hard work and vision which has even brought us this far, without it we would be lost, so if some of you have such a huge problem with the way this project is going you ought to also be thankful that after all this time the project still exists, this did not just happen. We have all been patient and the least we can do it wait till March. Keep in mind that this project basically demands this form of governance, I'd ask you to imagine this project if it were a truly democratic round table, but the fact is there would not even be a project in such a circumstance, and a lot of us have to much imagination to begin with, which is likely to blind our personal views toward biased positions which is more or less dillusional and aggrandizing. So PEOPLE be patient, mind your place, and let's all just be realistic about of our means, shortcomings, and give credit where it is due.
     
  5. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

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    S2HD could not have been out a long time ago considering the overwhelming majority of art still needed. I think LOst was referring to the engine for S2HD being ready more in advance if it weren't for the cross platform measures cited. That said, I am not a programmer, and I'll leave the technical discussion of it to those far more in the know.
     
  6. Chimpo

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    <!--quoteo(post=411294:date=Feb 16 2010, 10:28 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Feb 16 2010, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411294">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, in this case I'll just repeat myself and say that the prioritary aspect ratio should be 4:3 and not 16:9.
    Just like every other "additional feature" such as new animation frames and so on, the extended X resolution shouldn't be one of the priorities in this recreation. Sonic 2 was a 4:3 game, S2HD 1.0 should be a 4:3 game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Man, what's even the point of this project for the community anymore.

    There's a refusal in interpretation of the art to make it more lively, a consideration on reducing the visual quality so it can run on old computer, and a dislike on the idea of a widescreen mode, something that can actually benefit a Sonic the Hedgehog game.

    It just keeps going on about trying to keep Sonic 2 the same. You all might as well just play the damn thing on an emulator and call it a day.
     
  7. Hamneggs

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    Considering that almost all modern monitors being sold are widescreen, I feel that Nineko is being selfish and detrimental to the project if you want my take on it Chimpo. And do you honestly think that the alpha won't convince the majority about how much f'ing better the improvements you listed make the game? After the alpha is out I feel that this project will be on a brisk track towards completion.
     
  8. Andlabs

    Andlabs

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    Writing my own MD/Genesis sound driver :D
    I've tried to stay away from this project for too long now. Oh well.

    <!--quoteo(post=411430:date=Feb 16 2010, 04:44 PM:name=GerbilSoft)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GerbilSoft @ Feb 16 2010, 04:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411430">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=411291:date=Feb 16 2010, 01:11 PM:name=LOst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LOst @ Feb 16 2010, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411291">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->2. Do the work yourself, and speed up the development, AT YOUR free time. Help us!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Sure. Where's the source code?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This. How can this be a fucking community project if the community can't contribute? Are you trying to hide whatever inexperience you have with programming? Because a) you're being a dick, b) the biggest complaint from people outside the project — too big and too slow — can be fixed with a little help, and c) I have IDA 5.5 with the C decompiler so if I tried I could probably give you back your source code anyway.

    <!--quoteo(post=411841:date=Feb 16 2010, 11:55 PM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Feb 16 2010, 11:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411841">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=411294:date=Feb 16 2010, 10:28 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Feb 16 2010, 10:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411294">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, in this case I'll just repeat myself and say that the prioritary aspect ratio should be 4:3 and not 16:9.
    Just like every other "additional feature" such as new animation frames and so on, the extended X resolution shouldn't be one of the priorities in this recreation. Sonic 2 was a 4:3 game, S2HD 1.0 should be a 4:3 game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Man, what's even the point of this project for the community anymore.

    There's a refusal in interpretation of the art to make it more lively, a consideration on reducing the visual quality so it can run on old computer, and a dislike on the idea of a widescreen mode, something that can actually benefit a Sonic the Hedgehog game.

    It just keeps going on about trying to keep Sonic 2 the same. You all might as well just play the damn thing on an emulator and call it a day.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is similar to what happened to Project Sonic Retro. Stop focusing on the bullshit and start focusing on real priorities. Do you even know what your priorities are?
     
  9. nineko

    nineko

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    <!--quoteo(post=411844:date=Feb 17 2010, 06:01 AM:name=Hamneggs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hamneggs @ Feb 17 2010, 06:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411844">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Considering that almost all modern monitors being sold are widescreen, I feel that Nineko is being selfish and detrimental to the project if you want my take on it Chimpo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I think I mentioned I have a 16:9 laptop as well and that I don't mind pillarboxes.
    I also mentioned that I'm not against a 16:9 version per se, but that because of all its implications (e.g. boss arenas) it should be made after a 4:3 one to speed up the alpha release.

    All I said was nothing more you should expect from a logic reasoning. You don't build a skyscreaper starting from the 50th floor, you must have a basement. I find it pointless for them to waste time on changing the aspect ratio now that the game isn't even done. Just like they're not adding more frames to the animations for now, but they said they will. Everything should be done at a proper time, I don't see this insane need to have it in 16:9 since day 1.

    But whatever, I'll try to stay away from this topic from now on.
     
  10. roxahris

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    I can't see why we can't just, you know, lock the camera so the boss arens is in the centre of the screen for widescreen. I mean, fuck, why change the levels? Why do something unnecessary? What's wrong with just locking the camera?
     
  11. Mr.Deviance

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    I agree with chimpo. Too many cuts are being made. While I like the art style they are going for and think it's very close to what the original would have been if it was made on a genesis with today's console hardware, the lowering of image quality should not be made default but rather an optional thing!
    As for the widescreen support, I can understand the 4:3 issue but with everybody owning a 16:9 or 16:10 monitor or tv these days, it's going to be ugly to have this game show black bars on the left and on the right. Also doesn't "HD" actually imply that it's a product that respects the HD rules? Like to natively run in 1080p on a full hd monitor?
     
  12. GerbilSoft

    GerbilSoft

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    <!--quoteo(post=411848:date=Feb 17 2010, 12:14 AM:name=Mr.Deviance)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr.Deviance @ Feb 17 2010, 12:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411848">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also doesn't "HD" actually imply that it's a product that respects the HD rules? Like to natively run in 1080p on a full hd monitor?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Which "HD" rules, the rules that state that all HDTVs have to mangle VGA and DVI input sources such that video cards have to downscale them in order to show up properly onscreen? That, and "Full HD" is a rather low resolution, anyway. I usually have my system running at 3200x1200.

    Late EDIT: 1,000th post! :)
     
  13. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    <!--quoteo(post=411845:date=Feb 16 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ Feb 16 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411845">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is similar to what happened to Project Sonic Retro. Stop focusing on the bullshit and start focusing on real priorities. Do you even know what your priorities are?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Are you fucking retarded? Retro was a game that had nothing to base itself on, 2HD is based off entirely on making an old game pretty. The visuals side of the game is a big fucking priority, otherwise what's the fucking point?
     
  14. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

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    <!--quoteo(post=408517:date=Feb 9 2010, 06:24 PM:name=Vincent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vincent @ Feb 9 2010, 06:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=408517">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 March. Big News for S2HD Alpha. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <!--quoteo(post=408583:date=Feb 9 2010, 11:46 PM:name=Gambit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 9 2010, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=408583">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=408563:date=Feb 9 2010, 09:43 PM:name=Blue Streak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Blue Streak @ Feb 9 2010, 09:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=408563">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=408517:date=Feb 9 2010, 05:24 PM:name=Vincent)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vincent @ Feb 9 2010, 05:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=408517">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->15 March. Big News for S2HD Alpha. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    History suggests that things tend to go wrong on the Ides of March...
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What could possibly go wrong?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    <!--quoteo(post=408719:date=Feb 10 2010, 01:23 PM:name=RedStripedShoes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RedStripedShoes @ Feb 10 2010, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=408719">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=408583:date=Feb 9 2010, 11:46 PM:name=Gambit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gambit @ Feb 9 2010, 11:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=408583">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What could possibly go wrong?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Well, you just completely screwed us over by saying that. Thanks, asshole. :argh:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    So, who remembers this conversation?

    Let the team get the alpha out before any more quarreling takes place. Seriously. Gambit did say that they had a plan for the bosses, so why not just wait and see what they have planned? Sheesh.
     
  15. Afti

    Afti

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    <!--quoteo(post=411850:date=Feb 17 2010, 12:15 AM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Feb 17 2010, 12:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411850">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=411845:date=Feb 16 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Andlabs)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andlabs @ Feb 16 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411845">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is similar to what happened to Project Sonic Retro. Stop focusing on the bullshit and start focusing on real priorities. Do you even know what your priorities are?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Are you fucking retarded? Retro was a game that had nothing to base itself on, 2HD is based off entirely on making an old game pretty. The visuals side of the game is a big fucking priority, otherwise what's the fucking point?

    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is true- but I feel that making a PC Sonic 2 engine that behaves properly and is playable is the highest priority for this project.

    Prettiness means shit without an actual GAME. Reproduce Sonic 2, then add shit like 16:9/Eyefinity/2500x1600/Portrait support.

    Also? 1920x1080 is suboptimal for PC gaming; 2500x1600 PER MONITOR is the high-end PC resolution; put three of those end-by-end and you have a top-of-the-line setup. Isn't THAT what this is supposed to be catering to?
     
  16. GerbilSoft

    GerbilSoft

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    <!--quoteo(post=411859:date=Feb 17 2010, 12:32 AM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Feb 17 2010, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411859">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1920x1080 is suboptimal for PC gaming<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Lies. All the gamers here tell me 1920x1080 is "Full HD" and that it's impossible to get anything higher. :v:
     
  17. Hamneggs

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    <!--quoteo(post=411861:date=Feb 16 2010, 11:37 PM:name=GerbilSoft)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GerbilSoft @ Feb 16 2010, 11:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411861">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=411859:date=Feb 17 2010, 12:32 AM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Feb 17 2010, 12:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411859">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1920x1080 is suboptimal for PC gaming<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Lies. All the gamers here tell me 1920x1080 is "Full HD" and that it's impossible to get anything higher. :v:
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wrong. Not even per monitor. With a DVI cable the max resolution per monitor is indeed 2560x1600 or whatever. And then you can use multiple monitors on one pc. But with that many pixels to process, you would need a freakin' quad Crossfire 5970 pc with 2 I7 processors to sustain a good framerate on something even as easy as Call Of Duty.

    And are those gamers you reference "Console" gamers? They don't know it all, at all.
     
  18. Afti

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    I THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SARCASM.

    But, yeah, 2500x1600 Eyefinity is pretty much overkill to process.

    But, hey! With the Radeon HD 8870 and Core i17 920 that you'll be running by the time an alpha launches, you'll blow it to bits with SIX such monitors!
     
  19. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    <!--quoteo(post=411859:date=Feb 16 2010, 09:32 PM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Feb 16 2010, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411859">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is true- but I feel that making a PC Sonic 2 engine that behaves properly and is playable is the highest priority for this project.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    If I recall correctly, I think I remember they said they just took shit from the disassembly for it to play as accurately as possible, and from the Alpha builds they seem to play just fine.

    <!--quoteo(post=411859:date=Feb 16 2010, 09:32 PM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Feb 16 2010, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=411859">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also? 1920x1080 is suboptimal for PC gaming; 2500x1600 PER MONITOR is the high-end PC resolution; put three of those end-by-end and you have a top-of-the-line setup. Isn't THAT what this is supposed to be catering to?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't think they thought ahead when they drew the visuals.
     
  20. Afti

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    IIRC they're originated as vector art anyhow, so that really won't be too big an issue.