All Programming Discussion

Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Athelstone, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. OSM

    OSM

    retro is for losers! Member
    4,156
    0
    0
    Doing absolutely nothing
    I think the borders thing is silly. Wouldn't it be wiser to make considerations like this later on?
     
  2. Vincent

    Vincent

    Sonic 2HD - Project Leader & Chara Member
    1,253
    0
    16
    Sonic 2 HD
    Before getting too far on the argument, let me state our "official position" regarding this:

    -No Borders.

    Quoting Scanline:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Once upon a time, this project's goal was to redo Sonic 2 with sharper graphics, but those goals have evolved. Players should be embracing S2HD as a fresh experience, as opposed to a simple rehash of the old.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
     
  3. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    <!--quoteo(post=410292:date=Feb 14 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Vendettagainst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vendettagainst @ Feb 14 2010, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410292">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't you guys just stretch the shit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll pretend you never said that. Seriously, it's wrong enough when I see people running Gens in a maximized window ;_;
     
  4. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member
    861
    16
    18
    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    <!--quoteo(post=410260:date=Feb 14 2010, 04:14 AM:name=Afti)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Afti @ Feb 14 2010, 04:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410260">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For 16:9/16:10 DURING BOSSES- Borders come in on each side to bring it back to 4:3.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If the game is 16:9/16:10 it should stay that way. Switching back to 4:3 makes no sense. Any kind of border is bad.
     
  5. Flare

    Flare

    Member
    727
    18
    18
    Its a shame that we couldn't just zoom in on the boss. I know we can't cause it would make a mess of graphics. But I feel invisible barriers make sense.
     
  6. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member
    861
    16
    18
    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    <!--quoteo(post=410350:date=Feb 14 2010, 11:03 AM:name=Flare)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flare @ Feb 14 2010, 11:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410350">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But I feel invisible barriers make sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Or visible, if Robotnik's Wing Fortress Zone laser is used in other Zones.
     
  7. Kirinja

    Kirinja

    ATATATATA! Member
    68
    0
    0
    Didn't we go over this discussion a couple of months ago? Why are we discussing it again? Besides, we're still focusing on EHZ so the boss is not a problem (yet).
    If people (speedrunners/whatever) complain then I say fuck them. Chimpo brought up MMX for PSP, that is a good example on how S2HD should be.
     
  8. Endgame

    Endgame

    Formerly The Growler Member
    Solution: everyone buy a 4:3 monitor who hasn't got one.

    But seriously, you guys have me confused about the border issue.
    I just don't get it, the official position is there will be no borders, yet the concept art you're coming up with ARE all about borders!

    Aren't the 2 bigger totem poles technically borders themselves - albeit just part of the scenary?
    <!--quoteo(post=409793:date=Feb 13 2010, 11:34 AM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Feb 13 2010, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409793">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They're there to stop Sonic from moving off the battle zone, right? Then technically they're still borders, no matter how you look at it!

    A barrier, a border, it's the same thing, isn't it?
     
  9. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    this is what KLF is about Wiki Sysop
    You could always just... well... expand the boss areas where it's needed. You'd only need to do this for a few bosses, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of other things stopping it from playing pixel perfectly to the original anyway.

    However saying that, I thought the whole idea was just to use a resolution that was four times the size of the Mega Drive's. Even if you expanded the width for a widescreen ratio you'd still be resizing the game if you wanted to play it on most monitors full screen.
     
  10. Hamneggs

    Hamneggs

    Official Breakfast of S2HD Member
    303
    0
    0
    TEXAS
    Networked lighting
    <!--quoteo(post=410299:date=Feb 14 2010, 02:45 AM:name=OSM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OSM @ Feb 14 2010, 02:45 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410299">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the borders thing is silly. Wouldn't it be wiser to make considerations like this later on?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I think so. Lets just leave this in 4:3 and stretch it (OMG!!!) just like we did in the tech demos, and then AFTER march 15 we finish this argument, when we have more reason to worry about it?
     
  11. Vendettagainst

    Vendettagainst

    Apparently shooting kills things Member
    <!--quoteo(post=410316:date=Feb 14 2010, 06:23 AM:name=nineko)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nineko @ Feb 14 2010, 06:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410316">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=410292:date=Feb 14 2010, 09:23 AM:name=Vendettagainst)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vendettagainst @ Feb 14 2010, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410292">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why don't you guys just stretch the shit?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'll pretend you never said that. Seriously, it's wrong enough when I see people running Gens in a maximized window ;_;
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Funnily enough, that's how I play PicoDrive on my PSP.
     
  12. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    <!--quoteo(post=410397:date=Feb 14 2010, 11:36 AM:name=The Growler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Growler @ Feb 14 2010, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410397">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution: everyone buy a 4:3 monitor who hasn't got one.

    But seriously, you guys have me confused about the border issue.
    I just don't get it, the official position is there will be no borders, yet the concept art you're coming up with ARE all about borders!

    Aren't the 2 bigger totem poles technically borders themselves - albeit just part of the scenary?
    <!--quoteo(post=409793:date=Feb 13 2010, 11:34 AM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Feb 13 2010, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409793">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They're there to stop Sonic from moving off the battle zone, right? Then technically they're still borders, no matter how you look at it!

    A barrier, a border, it's the same thing, isn't it?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    No I'm pretty sure by borders, he means the cropping of the 16:9 view to introduce bars. If the borders are in game, they are fine, but they need to make sense and not alter gameplay. To actually alter boss fights isn't necessarily a bad idea, but the Aquatic Ruin Zone boss does not lend itself to that idea because the boss introduces the totems needed for the boss fight. You can't just space those to the opposite sides of the 16:9 screen.

    Something like Mystic Cave Zone or Metropolis Zone could be changed to fit a 16:9 screen without alienating the core of the boss fight mechanics.
     
  13. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

    S2HD Project Manager Member
    806
    0
    0
    Sonic 2 HD, various 3D work
    The staff hasn't come to a final decision on the boss zones yet. Why? Because we're focusing all our energies on the things that matter most right now, like getting a playable, polished, alpha build out to you guys. If you want my personal take on it, as I've said more than a few times now, I like Chimpo's idea, and what steveswede suggested isn't bad either.

    We're not looking to screw over the traditionalists by any means, but as with all things, there are bound to be people that aren't happy with something and feel the need to nitpick. Well that's unfortunate for them. But we're not going to let what will be an amazing experience for the majority be brought down by the few who will only want to play the game as a visual extension to the original. If it irritates them so much, it's a good thing they'll still have their emulators and the original to get their enjoyment out of.
     
  14. People People People...


    I agree that we have discussed this issue enough for the time being.

    But I just want to throw out my idea once more because I really do think it's a solid solution, for at least the ARZ Boss.

    Totems that are permeable from the outside-->in, but not inside-->out.

    This way the arena looks original, the battle functions as it did originally, there is nothing new added which is distracting, and no cheap stretching. I really feel it is a great solution.

    I would like some reasons put forth why this is not a best choice at the moment.
     
  15. Drex

    Drex

    Lazy perfectionist Member
    800
    40
    28
    <!--quoteo(post=410107:date=Feb 13 2010, 09:13 PM:name=Lizam)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lizam @ Feb 13 2010, 09:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410107">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Although this could disrupt the strategy of using spin dashes to hit eggman from the top of the totems as you're likely to fall of the side of the totem after bouncing back.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It could also be a bit annoying trying to keep balance during the battle. I'm not opposed to your idea SSS, but it would change how you would normally fight the boss.
     
  16. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member
    861
    16
    18
    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    <!--quoteo(post=410603:date=Feb 14 2010, 07:12 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Feb 14 2010, 07:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410603">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This way the arena looks original, the battle functions as it did originally<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Can the boss still be beaten with the spindash? When you spindash from the top of the totem and hit Robotnik you bounce back to the totem. With no barriers, won't Sonic fall from the top of the totem? That would be a significant change in the mechanics of that boss if you ask me.

    EDIT: Oh sorry, this has been mentioned already.
     
  17. So it will probably mess up the method of spin dash attack, surprisingly I have never even tried that technique. Still it seems to interfere with other aspects of the game the least.
     
  18. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    16
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    <!--quoteo(post=410397:date=Feb 14 2010, 08:36 AM:name=The Growler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Growler @ Feb 14 2010, 08:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410397">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Solution: everyone buy a 4:3 monitor who hasn't got one.

    But seriously, you guys have me confused about the border issue.
    I just don't get it, the official position is there will be no borders, yet the concept art you're coming up with ARE all about borders!

    Aren't the 2 bigger totem poles technically borders themselves - albeit just part of the scenary?
    <!--quoteo(post=409793:date=Feb 13 2010, 11:34 AM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Feb 13 2010, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=409793">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They're there to stop Sonic from moving off the battle zone, right? Then technically they're still borders, no matter how you look at it!

    A barrier, a border, it's the same thing, isn't it?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Of course they're god damn borders. The difference is that they don't take you out of the experience. They're ingame, they're part of the scenery and they're not to distracting. Sliding in black, colored, or borders with art isn't and makes it painfully obvious that you're not getting a full view of the fight now.
     
  19. Honestly I am sick of people suggesting these stupid ugly totem eye sores. Sorry for the frank language.
     
  20. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    16
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    <!--quoteo(post=410760:date=Feb 14 2010, 09:42 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Feb 14 2010, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410760">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly I am sick of people suggesting these stupid ugly totem eye sores. Sorry for the frank language.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It's amazing how you can see them already when no artwork has been provided at all aside from a 2 minute MS Paint mock up. Nice job judging ideas fairly there bro.

    <!--quoteo(post=410603:date=Feb 14 2010, 02:12 PM:name=subsubstantive)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (subsubstantive @ Feb 14 2010, 02:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=410603">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would like some reasons put forth why this is not a best choice at the moment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Because you can just wait outside the totem area while Robotnik hits another totem, wait for the arrow, go in, attack, fall back behind the pole and wait for the next arrow. Essentially, easy mode. Unless of course you want to have Robotnik freeze in mid air and do nothing while you're outside as well. Then of course, you have the problem of it just looking stupid. Let's not forget the fact that it removes the strategy to spin dash into the boss, or spin dash jumping from one totem to the other to continue attacking.