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Discussion in 'Sonic 2 HD (Archive)' started by Athelstone, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
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    We're not doing anything half-assed, so if we do add any form of border it will look like it's supposed to be there. I know Chimpo made an animated mock-up of something we could do for Aquatic Ruin, though I can't remember where it was posted. Also, glancing at all those images and knowing the general nature of all the bosses, I think Aquatic Ruin and Metropolis Zone will be the only real issues, and I only say Metropolis will be an issue because of the boss' attack pattern (the balls circle out around it from the center so if the play area was wider the orbit of his attack would have to be changed lest it be too easy to avoid even though it already is). Everything else can most likely be fixed with some programming.
     
  2. But I think it is important to contemplate if changing the viewing size will also change the experience. If we can see more we have more time to react, which might make the game easier. Could someone with the up to date resources make a mock up of a wide view vs a original view?
     
  3. Maybe that wasn't the best selection of words, I know you guys are working hard. However, no matter how it's done, letterboxing looks cheap. If you are making a widescreen game, you have to embrace the format. Momentarily switching to 4:3 will not work well.

    Something with extra pillars? I kinda remember that discussion. If each zone has it's own custom good-looking solution, then I'm OK with it being different from the original. I'm just against black borders.

    MCZ will need spikes coming from the ceiling at the edges of the arena too.

    With these changes, however, the game will not be input-compatible with the original Sonic 2 anymore (I seen to remember someone at the very beginning of the project stating that this was one of the goals).
     
  4. steveswede

    steveswede

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    In all honesty. That mockup of ARZ with those extra pillars just seemed over the top. Do the boss areas really NEED to be exact to the 4:3 ratio? When the time comes to ARZ, it could be worth to do a poll on some playable arenas. I think most of us have 16:9 TV/monitors and it does seem to me this project could bend the rules a little for modern TV's.
     
  5. Well, if Metropolis and MCZ will have extended arenas, it's just logical that ARZ should have its pillars spaced out. Again, this would break input compatibility with the original game. If that isn't important, I'm all for extending the arenas.
     
  6. steveswede

    steveswede

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    It was mentioned that speed runners would be effected. But would they be anyway as I'm sure Sonic 2 HD won't have the glitches that the Megadrive version of Sonic 2 does for level skipping.
     
  7. scanline99

    scanline99

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    My two cents on this:

    Seems like the main issue folks are having here is that the original gameplay will be changed if the play area is extended and have the potential upset speedrunners. Once upon a time, this project's goal was to redo Sonic 2 with sharper graphics, but those goals have evolved. Players should be embracing S2HD as a fresh experience, as opposed to a simple rehash of the old. I think those truly skilled players who are looking to speedrun would surely relish the new challenge/surprises set fourth by re-jigged boss fights which employ the use of a wider play field.
     
  8. I think the main goal is merely to bring Sonic 2 to today's standards. If monitor size has grown, then extending the frame of the game is something to be considered, BUT the intent is not to change the original game. If we begin making battle arenas bigger, then why not make platforms wider and plateaus taller, etc. This is not what we want. I don't WANT SOME STUPID GAME WHERE EVERY FAN TRIES TO MAKE THE GAME FIT THEIR PERSONAL DESIRES. This will end up with a bunch of stupid added characters, and silly bosses and extra levels, etc. We must be faithful to the original, and only deviate when it is necessary in that the change is for the benefit of something greater, not a change for the sake of change. Example, making the screen wider is a good idea as it brings the game to current standards and looks better, this may affect some things like boss arenas, but when we begin making arenas bigger to change the original intended experience we are going too far.
     
  9. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
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    Yes, and having a nice pretty stage playing full screen up to the boss and then having the sides just suddenly drop off to black would totally be up to today's standards. To change the original game we'd have to be doing stuff to the original game, which this obviously isn't.

    Because making platforms wider and plateaus taller wouldn't make much sense, and if this were a game where every fan tries to make it fit their personal desires it would most likely be a cheap rom hack and it would most certainly not be a remake of Sonic 2.

    Right now only Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles will be in it, there could be a couple more, but we're not adding any characters that weren't around during the Genesis/Mega Drive days, and since you're beginning to contradict yourself, you should realize that altering the graphics at all is, in theory, altering the original intended experience.
     
  10. MaximusDM

    MaximusDM

    Sonic 2HD - Concept Artist Member
    I personally wouldn't change the Aquatic Ruin Zone boss 4:3 gameplay, I would just add in game borders like was shown and illustrated.

    Something like the Mystic Cave Zone boss could be successfully translated to 16:9 gameplay. I would just extend his attack and speed it up to compensate for a bigger reaction time. The falling rocks and can left as they are. That is just what I think.

    In order to compensate for the larger space, I think certain boss attacks should be sped up. And the horizontal drill charge is just an example of that.
     
  11. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    I spent over 9000 hours recreating this image and animation to be pixel perfect to the other one.

    [​IMG]

    To quote myself

    Honestly, if you're going to have a widescreen mode, do it right. Don't half ass it with border art or invisible walls that just ruins the entire experience. Some things aren't going to be translated perfectly so adjustments should be made for it to fit as good as possible. If a boss has to be sped up, speed it up. If there size of the area greatly affects the fight, then find clever ways to block the area, don't just put some shitty art on it.

    This is what frustrates me when some people suggest border walls. You're not thinking creatively on how to hide a problem. You're doing it half ass and then patting each other on the back for doing a terrible job.

    In regards to speed runners.

    [​IMG]

    This game didn't give a fuck about them, why should you.
     
  12. Drex

    Drex

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    Chimpo basically beat me to it, but I'll post this anyway...

    Why is it so important that the game mirrors the gameplay berwteen 4:3 and 16:9 to a tee? Other than having to alter the behaviours of some bosses a slight bit (like widening the playing feild and speeding up certain mechanis accordingly) I truly don't see what the big deal is. If speed runners of the original Sonic 2 want their records untainted they should have no problem playing the game as it was meant to be played; in 4:3 mode. Sometimes you just can't have your cake and eat it too.

    Also, any worry about the game's input not matching the orignal exactly in 16:9 mode is a bit pointless to begin with. For one I recall a user mentioning that the physics would be based on sonic 3 (for some reason) and also if there are any speed tactics that involve exploiting the enemy layout, they likely wouldn't work due to the expanded viewing area making the enemies spawn earlier than the original Sonic 2.
     
  13. T.Q.

    T.Q.

    The Sims 2, Tim Drake [Robin] Member
    How about this idea. This is something that wouldn't involve making the playfield wider, but can definitely fill up widescreen monitors a little more than before.

    Cutting the height down to fit 16:10 monitors...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    All we'd be losing is something to this extent
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And for 16:9 monitors (or wider), instead of just black bars, use colour bars (for each zone). Plain one-colour bars, none with gradients or shadows, or fancy designs or whatever.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The new programming would be to shrink the height, and insert colour bars (instead of plain black bars). The effect on game play, for those speedrunners, would be a cut in height (and if they're distracted by the bar colours, then that too). I can already see a cut in height as being bad, but it definitely reduces the effort in creating a widescreen specific playfield for the boss areas. And as for the special stage too, it would probably be less effort too. If anything, you can compensate the reduced visual area by reducing the sizes of the HUD and Life Icon to make the picture look bigger.

    And for kicks, if you REALLY REALLY want the game in cinema format...goooood luck. You'll be seeing tons of colour bars, or guessing where Robotnik is hovering.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Canned Karma

    Canned Karma

    S2HD Project Manager Member
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    Let me just stamp out anyone thinking that something so half-assed as color bars -will not be implemented- in S2HD. They're distracting, and a poor 'solution' to an issue that can and will be solved far more gracefully than that. I'm more for the creative approach like Chimpo has repeatedly brought up.

    This game is going to be polished. Just slapping bars in at the side is anything but representative of that.
     
  15. T.Q.

    T.Q.

    The Sims 2, Tim Drake [Robin] Member
    Well then some group will have to get screwed, since not everybody will be pleased.

    The traditionalists will hate the game because of the new creative additions (e.g. adding poles to ARZ's boss), or
    The speedrunners will hate the game because the boss area is wider.

    So what will it be? Who will be screwed?
     
  16. I think that, since input compatibility with the original isn't important, the least intrusive thing is to enlarge the boss arenas.

    Space out the damn pillars and compensate by increasing Robtnik's and the arrows' speeds a bit. The extra pillars look too out of place in my opinion, as will any "creative" solution to keep the player confined to the center of the screen (I know I was OK with this idea before, but after some thinking I changed my mind).

    If you just increase the length of the arenas most people that didn't read this discussion won't even notice anything is different.
     
  17. scanline99

    scanline99

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    If you are someone who feels screwed by this game, then you are playing for the wrong reasons quite simply. Refreshed experience, another challenge to master.
     
  18. Gambit

    Gambit

    Sonic 2 HD Staff - Level Artist Member
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    Protip: If it's done well, nobody will notice.
     
  19. Alright... I think I have a solution for some of them...

    For the ARZ boss, why not just make the totems so that Sonic can walk past them from the outside in -->I--> <---I<--
    But not from the inside out XI<-- -->IX

    This way Sonic can only dodge the attack if he is to walk over the edge of the totems (out), which doesnt give any real advantage, as he cannot attack Robotnik from there. However, once he passes back into the totem area he is now vulnerable, but can attack.

    For CPZ we could just have spinning platforms which turn over permanently to keep Sonic from going past the original 4:3 arena.

    For MCZ We could just have a large rock fall on each side of the arena to keep sonic confined.
     
  20. T.Q.

    T.Q.

    The Sims 2, Tim Drake [Robin] Member
    Okay, so how will it work? Specifically, not generally. And how long will it take to make the idea a reality?