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Adventures with Chaotix

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Black Squirrel, Jan 23, 2021.

  1. saxman

    saxman

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    I agree it's more likely it's a magazine edit given what we know. For all we know, it might still say "Sonic Crackers" there! I would find it odd to not at least attempt some game title on the screen, but maybe the name had just changed and they didn't have time to throw something on there? I don't know.
     
  2. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    I'm curious though -- which game uses the mixed resolution? And where? I'd like to check out those results, it sounds interesting.
     
  3. saxman

    saxman

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    NFL Quarterback Club uses it for menus.

    By coincidence, I have actually very recently been in touch with the authors of Jgenesis, PicoDrive, and Ares to try and make this more accurate since the two frames are not actually lined up properly on real hardware (the 32X frame is about 4-ish pixels to the right of the Genesis frame). Jgenesis and Ares just corrected this behavior within the past two weeks, with PicoDrive to come at some point. I also got Ares to fix a bug where transparent pixels were bleeding through the frame, which is also a bug in Kega. And Gens flat out doesn't support H32 in 32X games.

    The next release of SRB32X will also use this mode.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2025
  4. Kilo

    Kilo

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    Sonic 1 Source Code Recration
    It's not entirely out of the question that the assets were drawn for different resolutions. Sonic CD's title screen also switched from H40 to H32 mode during development:
    upload_2025-3-7_9-40-10.png upload_2025-3-7_9-40-24.png
    Perhaps Knuckles and the ring were drawn for separate builds in which they changed the resolution in between for VRAM optimizations.
    Ultimately, I'm also a believer that it was just a graphic made for the magazine, but I just wanted to toss my hat into the ring of possible explanations were it to be in game.
     
  5. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    Yeah, but this is demonstrating what I'm talking about. Both the ring and Sonic are squished, not only one element. The entire art asset was squished.
     
  6. The one mystery I don't know if it'll ever get answered is why Electoria got butchered so hard for the final release. And people can't tell me it's because they needed to remove the Newtrogic High leitmotif since other songs still use it anyway. Crackers Electoria is unironically one of the most banging non-vocal themes from all of Sonic imo and has inspired so many of my creative works, and I will never stop being sad the final game shipped with a demonstrably less complex and harmonic version of the song.
     
  7. evilhamwizard

    evilhamwizard

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    Speaking of that title screen, I'm surprised no one pointed out that specifically β− is overlaid on top, it's not just β. Which is a very very weird deliberate choice, and actually refers to Beta decay, a type of radioactive decay. Not software development related as far as I know.

    From Wikipedia:

    Before you think this is just a quirk of the magazine or Chaotix in general. Not true! The developers of Sonic CD labeled builds with alpha and beta as well, and even used the minus there too.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    just a few weeks ago:
    revo.png

    edit: misread lol
     
  9. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    The boards were playing games with images earlier in the week so I didn't have a good look. But I have now!

    [​IMG]

    I think this "stretched ring" situation is because it's meant to be at an angle (as in, tilted back - like the Sonic 3 title). What little "lighting" exists here seems to suggest that, though It's not particularly well drawn. I don't think this is a 256x224 -> 320x224 conversion - I think that would be more noticeable.

    The "Knuckles' Ringstar" font appears to be Helvetica bold(?). The "R" gives it away.

    This is curious because this would suggest it was drawn on a Mac. Windows has never shipped with Helvetica by default because Microsoft didn't want to pay the licensing fees (that's why Arial exists), and as I don't think Macs of the era came with paint programs by default, we're maybe looking at something cooked up in say... Adobe Photoshop 2? That might explain colour choices if they were rushing things.

    I can't really imagine what would have been standard kit for Sega in Japan circa 1993/1994. Sonic 3 monitors being based on the Macintosh Color Classic might suggest Macs were in vogue, idk.

    Knuckles' weird eyes? Not necessarily a European art thing.

    [​IMG]
    It's a prototype Sonic 3 thing. It's less pronounced in the final but it's maybe not a stretch to think his eyes would be vaguely shaped like Sonic's.

    [​IMG]
    And it was American too, for the record.

    The "Nike mark" on his chest isn't white either, which is... vaguely important kinda. Sonic 3&K's sprites use tan, but the promotional art and the Sonic & Knuckles title screen uses white. Chaotix uses tan in-game but yellow on the title screen, which suggests to me the design guides were a little late to the party.

    I'm not sure why this art in this Ringstar build looks so weird - I thought it might be crappy scanning software, but now I'm thinking someone just drew it quickly in Photoshop. Sega always seems to have expected dedicated title screens to exist, so I'd be tempted to go all occam's razor again - it looks crap because they made it quickly as a placeholder. It's based on what little reference material they had.
     
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  10. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

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    The Sega Saturn Cross products manuals suggest either an SGI O2 or Mac running OS9 (EDIT: Actually, it might recommend OS7, I can't remember off the top of my head) for their tools, and ships a suite for each. The version I have from around late 96 still has japanese language (untranslated) Mac image editing software in the English-speaking set. That was 1996, so by 2-3 years later, they were definitely using Macs in japan at Sega.
     
  11. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    I sourced a copy of Helvetica for testing and discovered Sega Retro is a fan:
    Code (Text):
    1. font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif !important;
    "why has the font gone weird?". "Oh."

    Anyway RE: Knuckles' eyes
    [​IMG]
    Apparently this was Greg Martin's style and was also used in Triple Trouble (twice!). Given his work was treated as a de facto standard design for Sonic and Tails, it makes sense it applied to Knuckles as well, until Sega reigned it all in.

    As to why the Japanese-developed Chaotix was using this design... I can't say. The Japanese release of Sonic 3 has a normal looking Knuckles design (presumably drawn by Akira Watanabe, but who knows) on its front cover, so they should have "known".

    [​IMG]
    Clearly something went out thoug. Perhaps it's similar to tan-faced Tails.
     
  12. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    eee it's properly confusing
    [​IMG]
    Sonic 3 PAL box art: no Nike symbol
    [​IMG]
    Sonic 3 PAL "Special Edition Pin Set": yellow Nike symbol
    [​IMG]
    McDonalds Happy Meal toy - the supposed reason Sonic 3 was split into two: white Nike symbol
    [​IMG]
    Although the packaging uses similar art to the pin above. I think that specific drawing might be the basis for everything.
     
  13. Quickman

    Quickman

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    That pin looks like they interpreted it as a piece of jewellery.
     
  14. CaseyAH_

    CaseyAH_

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    It is a necklace in StC, though I can't remember if that was true from his first appearance or not. He was noticeably pink when he first showed up in that comic, though.
     
  15. Quickman

    Quickman

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    He was also a bit pink in Sonic 3’s cutscenes due to using Sonic’s palette, wasn’t he?
     
  16. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    Not due to using Sonic's palette - he had his own cutscene-specific palette which replaced the green of his socks with yellow (so the HUD could still display correctly) and, for some reason, used apparently intentionally pinker tones for his fur.

    It's been a while since I had time to play it, but am I right in thinking the prototype we have access to uses the same palette as the final playable Knuckles (green socks and redder fur) in cutscenes?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2025
  17. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    Knuckles is meant to be ever-so-slightly pink - according to more modern guidelines it's Pantone "Red 032 C" which comes out as #EF3340. In Chaotix (and Sonic Mania) he's pinker than Mighty.

    But it's probably like how Sonic is never exactly the same shade of blue in each game - he might have been slightly pink in Sonic 3 to better stand out against the backgrounds, and then marketing and merchandise ran with it. He became more red when people forgot he was meant to be pink, or something.


    [​IMG]
    but then we know his socks were always meant to be green, and yet some of the art has them as yellow, because Sonic 3 palettes forced them to be rendered as such. It feels like in the beginning, very few non-developers had a handle on the character. It's very telling that he doesn't appear on the US box beyond a spooky set of eyes - he's not much of a secret - you see him within the first 10 seconds of play.
     
  18. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Page 77 of Sonic Jam Official Guide has a piece of Knuckles art with a tan chest mark. Page 80 of the PDF on the wiki: https://retrocdn.net/images/5/57/SonicJamOfficialGuide_Book_JP.pdf

    The sculpture made for reference at the time had a white chest mark: https://web.archive.org/web/2022081...l.com/NaotoOhshima/status/1560202378615214080

    You can see that the 3D sculpture was likely referenced for some of Knuckles' early Japanese model sheets.

    The belt straps on the gloves only appear in American and European artwork, and the Happy Meal toy. They're following this (likely American) model sheet: https://info.sonicretro.org/File:SonicOrigins_museum_pic_l_art_138.png

    It specifies the correct colors for Knuckles' shoes, and indeed that Knuckles himself is red. It also specifies that the straps on the gloves are red, as seen on the Sega Visions cover and the Happy Meal toy. The chest mark is missing from the side view. Presumably there was a front view at some point?

    Regardless, it appears that the European Sonic 3 Knuckles art was based on a version of this reference without the color guide, thus the angular mouth shape, the long eyes, the glove straps, the lack of a chest mark.
     
  19. Brainulator

    Brainulator

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    In the prototype, 2P mode and most cutscenes use the pinker palette with green socks except for the initial cutscene with early Knuckles, which uses the final player palette.

    In the final game, the pinker palette and green socks combo can be seen in Competition Mode, the "try again" screen in Sonic 3 (and the equivalent screen in Sonic & Knuckles, apparently), and the darkest step of Super/Hyper Knuckles's palette. The Data Select screen, on the other hand, merges Knuckles's redder colors into Sonic's palette.
     
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  20. Linkabel

    Linkabel

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    I'm not sure if this helpful, but for whatever reason there was a time where some western stock art was used in Japanese merch during the mid-90s.

    That Sonic pointing at the viewer was a favorite one along with another Greg Martin artwork that was used in the January 1993 issue of i-D magazine.

    So at least we know someone over there had access to the artwork.
     
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