A stupidly thorough thesis on the conceptual origins of Amy Rose.

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by ChaddyFantome, Feb 15, 2021.

  1. eldarin

    eldarin

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    This was really well written,good job! An interesting take on her origins for sure!
     
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  2. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I thought this was all fairly obvious stuff. Kinda strange to see fans acting like this is out-there. I think this proves, more than anything, that Amy's entire character has become an ancient relic for younger fans to discover, instead of being the generic go-getter girl she is today.

    I'm not sure about the Classic incarnation being specifically out of the "magical girl" genre, but the Modern incarnation, most definitely. Everything from her outfit to her hammer to the abilities she has screams "magical girl". I think elements of this remain even in recent titles, but even in SA1, they shied away from giving Amy too many magical abilities. I think this is for two unfortunate reasons:

    1) Amy would be able to defend herself pretty easily, thus not be a damsel in distress for Sonic to rescue.
    2) Her abilities just being "magic" means there are essentially no rules for what she can and can't do, unless those rules are defined, which SEGA clearly is not interested in doing.
     
  3. Pengi

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    I don't think the influences were necessarily from the magical girl genre specifically. Amy's original outfit was fairly typical of stuff you'd see in vintage anime/manga.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. cartridgeculture

    cartridgeculture

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    Super interesting thread, and thank you for all this research. As for my perspective, I feel classic Amy most strongly gives off a “mascot for young girls” vibe, even if she never exactly filled the role Sonic did.

    Her design is almost like you pulled her from an genderswapped alternate universe where she was the lead. I feel Amy was created predominantly to be the perfect “girl Sonic”, and including many of the mascot features that had made Sonic popular. And it’s only over the years that she’s gotten more meaningful characterization.

    But I think her clothing was inspired more by general youthful Japanese fashion at the time, which tied into Sonic CD’s presentation and her whole appeal as a kind-of mascot. And I think the “destiny” part is really just them saying “she’s got a destiny with Sonic cause, y’know, the love interest and all.”
     
  5. ChaddyFantome

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    Oh boy, I could probs write a whole dissertation on this alone, but you are absolutely right.
    When they set out to create "the Minnie to Sonic's Mickey", it very much wasnt just in regards to design. Amy and Sonic share a lot of similarities even in regards to personality and interests, (with some more obvious differences and discrepancies of course).

    Fair enough. Still fun to think about regardless if you ask me.

    This is where I strongly disagree, and I could present you with a mountain of examples that show that these elements of believing in fate and destiny extend beyond just the CD encounter and only continued to be made a sticking point all the way to even Sonic Forces. And, maybe I will later. Unfortunately, I'm on my way to work at the moment so my hands are tied.
    All i can leave you with is Amy's faith continues to be a consistent elements of her personality in near every game she appears in, and when it isn't its usually missing due to a western writer not "getting it" resulting in its omission, or the translation not getting it, resulting in its ommision.
    Off the top of my head, the original Japanese script for Heroes actually has Amy use idioms to the tune of "Me and Sonic are tied by the red thread of Fate". She has a strong fascination and association with things like wishes and shooting stars, etc.
    While she hasn't visibly pulled out the tarot deck as frequently as she probably could (and in my opinion should), this is still very much a present and consistent part of her characterization over the course of the series.
     
  6. cartridgeculture

    cartridgeculture

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    I’m talking classic Amy. Amy definitely has an occultism hobby, but it’s not really a part of her “character” if that makes sense. It’s like chili dogs; something that definitely comes up on occassion, but it’s really more in the realm of bonus information like Blood Type. And while it’s also something that got expanded over the years to become bigger parts of their characters, it’s still a secondary trait.

    I DO think that developers can intepret her occultism differently. And some might have rolled with it harder than others. But I don’t think it goes beyond chili dogs. also hope I didn’t sound mean at all, I genuinely love the perspective and internet words can sound mean
     
  7. Laura

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    The more I think about the OP the more I wonder if it's valid that Amy has magical powers. She dreams of Sonic in Forces, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has visions of him. It could just mean that she dreams he's still alive because she fancies him and he's presumed dead. What is the original Japanese meaning? Is it more specifically 'vision/prediction'?

    The hammer is also a bit of a stretch. Not much different to Sonic and Tails pulling Chaos Emeralds out of thin air in Adventure 1 and 2. Do they have magic powers too? The hammer is just for convenience and the heart effect is for visual flair.

    The fact she uses tarot cards and enjoys fortune telling doesn't necessarily mean she has magic powers, otherwise my cringey flatmate from last year can use the power of the moon :V . Although I admit that in media tarot cards are often associated with magical powers so it's probably one of the stronger points.

    My main problem upon reflection is that there's a lack of real concrete evidence outside of the invisibility power up in Sonic 06 and that she enjoys dabbling in popular occult. I think there is something there regarding her magic powers. I just think we need to dig deeper. Is there any more evidence?

    I also think some of the points on the magical girl stuff is a stretch because, let's be honest, Amy is a walking cliché. She's a girl who fancies the male main character and is immediately damseled in her first ever appearance. The fact she is pink, wears a skirt, and has a pink hairband, all feminine coded clothing, is hardly unique to world media never mind specific Japanese genres.
     
  8. ChaddyFantome

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    Really, I think the fact her Hammer was called a Magical Hammer by itself suggests enough about it, but to elaborate on this one point, the reason it isn't the same is because of how it is done and perceived in universe.
    In the case of them simply taking out objects, it's always treated as them pulling something out of a or putting something into a nonexistent pocket. This is something all the characters do and is treated as a normal thing in universe. Amy's hammer on the other hand is the only object where the fact she "brings it out of nowhere" and "no one knows where she puts it" is ever made special mention of, as if to say it is a curiosity. If it were simply like how characters pull chaos emeralds out of their pockets, there would be no reason for such a thing or to highlight it.

    Would Storming Hearts and Tornado Hammer not be concrete enough examples then? She summons whirlwinds of hearts to attack. Not sure how I would really explain it otherwise.
    [​IMG]
    Tornado_Hammer.gif

    She also has a very similar move in Sonic Battle, which states she shoots the tornadoes by thinking of Sonic when before she swings.
    Pinky Typhoon Japanese.png
    In fact, the Japanese script specifically refers to them as "アイのタツマキ" (Love Tornados).

    "エミーのグランドショット。
    ソニックを想いながらハンマーを振ることで、
    アイのタツマキ が発生して、
    相手にダメージを与える。

    "Amy's Ground Shot. By swinging her hammer while thinking of Sonic, Tornado of Love is released and damages the opponent."

    Speaking of Sonic Battle, anyone remember when Amy did this?
    Maiden's Confession.gif
    Speaking of instances that are different than other character simply pulling things out of their pockets, this one is a good example as Amy does....what she does in the above as opposed to just pulling it out from her non-existent pocket like Sonic does.

    Sonic Cracker Bomb cropped.gif


    Then of course there is the dowsing.
    Amy dowsing.png
    While it's been stated Amy has dowsing in her repertoire and her ability to sense Sonic and find him with her "girlish intuition" is well known, she has shown that it isn't exclusive to Sonic.
    This clip in particular is her idle quote in Rail Canyon from Sonic Heroes.
    Dowsing itself is conceptually something that is tied to magic or the idea of superstition in general, and is usually tied to the idea of "the forces of the cosmos" if you will which also conceptually ties in with things like Tarot, In essence a pseudoscience.
    Do note the use of the word "may" implying uncertainty. This suggests her method isn't normal general "sensing things" like say a DragonBall character does with Ki.
    Downsing is often done via dowsing rods, sometimes even called Witching Rods, though Amy doesn't seem to use any such thing, it's not really a rule that one needs any tool to do it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  9. cartridgeculture

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    This is hammerspace. And the glowy effects are just artistic license, like when characters’s eyes turn into hearts. That character doesn’t really have a magic ability to transform their eyeballs. It’s just artists being creative yknow?

    I don’t mean to sound like I’m trying to rain on your parade, but I think you’re reading into the details too much. Amy has an occultism hobby, which occasionally gets directly referenced in flavor text or certain dialog, but that doesn’t manifest in her having magic powers. If it was a serious part of her character then we’d all know about it.

    And to interject my own opinion on Amy here, I’ve always kinda felt the opposite. She doesn’t have magic, or... much in the way of “powers” like the other mainline Sonic characters. That’s why she has to resort to using a massive hammer. She’s exceedingly normal, and that’s part of why I love her so much. and in complete honesty.... I relate to Amy way more than I do Sonic. Sonic is a superhero with superpowers. Amy isn’t, and she has to make up for it by crafty and technical and charming, and sometimes beating things into submission with a giant hammer. She sometimes struggles with it, like we all do on our own adventures, but seeing her keep up with all these super saiyans on nothing but her own willpower is genuinely inspiring.
     
  10. Laura

    Laura

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    I dunno. I get the point of @cartridgeculture but i do also think @ChaddyFantome may be onto something.

    It could just be visual effects. Hearts are a very cliche feminine thing. But I could believe that she has vague, unspecified magic powers represented by hearts which just kind of stayed without having any significance. The fact her magic attack in SA2 uses hearts and that sprite in Sonic Battle could suggest something. Or it might just be visual flair, who knows.

    Whether it's intentional is probably beside the point, I think there's probably enough evidence in the games to make it your own headcanon, until it gets hard disproved later down the line :V
     
  11. ChaddyFantome

    ChaddyFantome

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    I think I presented a more than adequate case for why I think it is rather premature to dismiss it as mere hammer space. It wouldn't need to be addressed as a special case specifically for Amy if it was, since hammerspace is something all the characters have. Yet Amy's Hammer is the only time its resting place being a mystery is made a point of. Why?
    Likewise I think it is dismissive here as then it is to uniquely dismiss anything Amy does and only her.
    Her hearts are very visibly interacting in the world as opposed to things like characters eyes bulging out in a cartoon manner.
    If its just a mere visual effect, I'd like to know the contextual purpose of it outside of the assertion that it is merely so.
    I don't mean to sound hostile, but I think you are being overly dismissive. Whatever one wants to call what Amy is doing here, there is more than sufficient evidence that she has some kind of ability. How one wants to describe it or call it is honestly up to the individual. But to sweep all this corroborated evidence under the rug? Can't help but feel its very much just kind of plugging one's ears and putting on blinders.
    I mean, it doesn't get much more overt than the game litterally called the hammer a Magical Hammer, and I can't help but feel the desire to deny any of this is out of a personal desire to frame the character a certain way in rejection to suggestions to the contrary.
    Like, I don't know how one explains "Tornado Hammer" as anything but some kind of power. It's really not something you can dismiss whatsoever, and let alone given it isn't something that is a one off as it has for all intents and purposes appeared in 3 different games/instances.
    Rose Typhoon.jpg
    Not sure what the Rose Typhoon is meant to be a "visual effect" of, but I do know it hurts people.

    At the end of the day, the last post I made is simply a straightforward observation one makes just by looking at what's in front of them, as opposed to merely whether they line up with preconceptions of what I believed the character was. With that, I do very much leave it up to the rest of everyone else to make sense of it how they please, but I must be transparent in saying I find it rather frustrating that some would rather, quite frankly, patronize by insisting "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" for a lack of a better way to describe it.

    With that said, I don't see why this idea would conflate with one's perception of the character in the first place. Amy's growth over the course of the series isn't diminished or less prevalent any of this in mind. Rather, it reinforces the idea that her hard work paid off and yielded potent results.
    If you perceives Amy as having an affinity for the mystical arts as something that has developed over the course of the series, which her Hammer being called a Magical Hammer in its debut game suggests, then it's still all just a series of tricks she picked up along the way acting as demonstrable proof of her evolution as an individual. I...just don't see how this conflates with anything in this regard to what you have expressed liking about the character.

    Speaking of her Hammer. It's also been shown to change shape and size dynamically in multiple instances.
    For good measure, i believe Sonic Adventure even states that it isn't a particularly powerful weapon, suggesting its efficiency is less physical. Which, well, makes sense given its modeled after a toy squeaky hammer of all things. Food for thought I suppose.
     
  12. XAndrew

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    Well to be fair. If we are talking about the games, I believe in Sonic And The Black Knight that games variant of Amy known as Nimue was a witch was she not? I mean it kinda does make you wonder why Sega had her be the one to be the magic character in that game, seeing as how all the Sonic characters we ALL know that had different names in that game had skills/abilities exactly like their original versions in someway. Especially with Tails being known as...the Blacksmith and all in that game, which kinda sounds like what the original Tails does with his machines. So yeah. I can kinda see Amy having form of magic as her abilities.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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  13. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    Sorry, which game is this? It looks like a game with Sonic characters as guests more than a Sonic game itself.
     
  14. Beamer the Meep

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    That would be Sonic & The Black Knight's party mode.
     
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  15. I don't know, it still feels like you've come to a conclusion and went searching for anything at all to support it. The fact that most of your evidence is stuff like abilities from multiplayers modes does not help your case as most of them just feel like they were made so she can be a clone of an existing character for multiplayer purposes. Like for the SA2:B stuff they made up some stuff for her so she's a little more than just "Sonic with a different model." The attacks are still pretty much Sonic's attacks modified and that's fine enough but like "Storming Heart" isn't really evidence she can summon hearts to attack now or something crazy like that. If that was the case then Sonic could summon wind at an opponents' location at will, Knuckles could cause lightning to strike, and so on.

    Our own wiki says that the ability was only used in Heroes, and it was a variant of the other abilities used by the Speed character in the other teams. Like I can get the mysticism angle but "no she can definitely use magic" still feels like a stretch given the evidence provided.
     
  16. ChaddyFantome

    ChaddyFantome

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    To start, I would like to point out how the only real "multiplayer" thing I listed as overt corroboration was Storming Hearts , so the "most" descriptor thing there is simply inaccurate.
    (Rose Typhoon I believe supports my point, but if you want to ignore it, (which I don't agree with) be my guest. it's not a hill I want to die on.)
    That said, I can't agree. Metal Sonic for example actually has no abilities. If they wanted the character to have none, nothing was stopping them from doing just that if they felt it. Even so, if we are to still take that out of the equation, it still reflects how the developers see the character and their abilities, and the things they do will at least have some form of descriptor to reflect the character. They could have done a lot of things instead of Storiming Hearts as an attack, such as cartoonishly having a hammer fall out of the sky and hit the player or have random objects flung at them cartoonishly like a move Amy had in Sonic the Fighters actually.
    But they instead chose to specifically give her the ability to attack people with a whirlwind of hearts. That's not really random.
    That I'd argue says something on its own, but could still be dismissed if not corroborated by the fact she has shown to be able to do similar if not conceptually identical moves in later entries even outside of Multiplayer such as the Tornado Hammer, and Pink Typhoon. It's in general, a concept they seem to see as something that extends beyond just a wacky excuse to hit the player in a single multiplayer mode in 1 game, unlike something like Knuckles' "Thunder Arrow" which as far as I am aware we never really see anything like it again.
    Doesn't that HELP my case if anything? Amy actually has a lot of differences gameplay-wise. She is slower, doesn't have a spindash, light speed, dash, etc. They put thought into distinguishing her from the others, even going as far as having her whip out her hammer for every spin attack, somersault, homing attack she does to contextualise how she is doing it.
    If it were just Sonic's Sonic Wind but Pink, I'd agree with you, but it has a completely different animation and uses different graphics. I see no good reason to dismiss this. They put extra thought and effort here that wasn't necessary if it was meant to be throwaway.
    I mean, it's not even the first time she did it? If I remember correctly, it's actually something she could do in Sonic Drift, which, yes it's a game gear racing game. But nonetheless, its shows that this has a precedent and isn't "crazy". We see it on screen with our own eyes. In multiple instances.
    I'm not sure how this contests the fact Amy has done Tornado Hammer. Blue Tornado and Black Tornado are basically clones of each other, but neither operates anything conceptually like Tornado Hammer of Espio's Leaf Swirl, which, I would hope we all agree is something he can categorically do as well as turn invisible along with it. So why is Amy being singled out here?
    Like I said before, I am not making a categorical declaration on whatever it is Amy is doing. However one wants to describe what Amy does here is really up to the individual. I'm just saying that whatever that may be, she very clearly has "some" kind of power and this is simply my explanation of it, as I believe it to make sense in tying all the other things she has been shown to do together in a logical and neat manner that, at least to me, conceptually makes sense with her character.

    Black knight.
     
  17. cartridgeculture

    cartridgeculture

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    Games are allowed to make their attacks glowy without it being magic. Magic is not a significant part of Amy’s character. It’s really just artistic license.
     
  18. Yet the creators thought it was significant enough to mention her interest in magic in every game she's been in, starting before she was even made playable.
     
  19. cartridgeculture

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  20. ChaddyFantome

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    So I was just minding my own business when I ran into something pretty cool.
    As mentioned before, Amy has a move in called Pinky Typhoon where she summons Pink tornadoes she sends at her opponents.
    Well as it turns out, Pinky Typhoon is the name of one of Sailor Chibi Moon's image themes from a Sailor Moon Musical.
    This one supposedly came out January 2, 2003, same year as Sonic Battle released in Japan which was 4 December 2003 at the end of the year.
    Can't really see how one shakes the connection on this one.
     
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