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@Blue Blood

What if it was Sonic 3 with 4 (audio and visual) variations of every act? I'd be quite happy with that. Seriously... Past Icecap and Future Icecap..?? ysplz~~

@DigitalDuck
Boss talk yo. Ok, let me throw some bosses at you. I think these bosses are as good as it gets, so I'm interested in any faults you might identify in them.
Casino Night (especially), Green Hill, Hydrocity Act 2.

The main thing being that the player never had to wait + could always try to attack. Hydrocity wasn't as threatening as the other two, but I admired how it allowed for at least 3 completely different attack styles which each balanced skill and success well.

There are many more bosses I think are very good (ARZ, ICZ2, MHZ1, CPZ), but the three listed above are perfect examples I think. I find literally no faults with them. I don't mind a little bit of downtime in a boss fight, a *little* bit, and only if it is *still* filled with some non-patronising, varied, play to stay alive. Oil Ocean is a good example of the non-patronising part, but it simply takes too long between phases. If it had a faster pace I'd like it. I think LRZ1 is a good example of "can't always attack, but when you can't you still have to get involved".

Bosses I think were simply poor:
Spring Yard, Sandopolis 2, Hill Top, Marble.

But overall we have different feelings about the bosses in general; those that did something different were (mostly) a nice change for me.

Yeow, on 21 July 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

I totally agree with this, except with a really different perspective.

You talk of the shields' protection in terms of "only" and feel that's their biggest issue. I think this part of shields was OP yet compared to their other factors (below), OP shields weren't much of a muchness.

In my opinion, character was possibly the biggest fault of Sonic's shields when compared to Mario's suits. Shields only feel like tools. That's totally fine, but when you think of Mario's suits with all that character in comparison, you kind of feel that fun that suits just put in your mind. I'm not suggesting Sonic games should have copied that, it would look cheap, but Sonic Colours definitely added character to its powerups and that definitely added appeal to them, and to the game.

I agree that the shields' moves were completely uninspired. The water shield's bounce is the most interesting, but also the most clumsy. They really do feel like they just got thrown in as an answer to Mario.

Regarding protection, Sonic was already god-like with the rings, so +1 hit +1 element protection +1 projectiles protection was too much if the concern was keeping Sonic alive. If instead we consider the player who doesn't want to lose the shield itself, then I would probably feel that much protection is ok. The problem being that I just never saw the shields as a big deal to lose. The lightning shield was nice yes, but again, compare it to Mario. Losing a suit in Mario is a big freaking deal. It manufactures fun. Losing a shield is nowhere near that.

Regarding paths, I've always wondered if the explicit absence of shield-specific paths was a deliberate design feature or a fault, just because it is so explicit. Paths and shields have nothing (nothing deliberate anyway) to do with each other. I honestly liked the way this communicated to me that I was never going to be patronised with a shield. I have (and at that young age, I had already-) had it up to the eyeballs with game design that says "Here's a power" followed by "Must use power to proceed". This makes me feel like I'm watching Home & Away and that the target audience I've made myuself a part of is apparently meant to be stupid. If I collected a shield in Sonic, I knew it was 100% for my enjoyment, not some level designer's lame spark of upcoming non-brilliance.

But having said all that, I must admit that secreting away some paths and making them shield-dependent would have been a good thing. More for the player to lose, more meaning in a shield. Again, Mario 3 set the example and set it well. Shields, like many things Sonic, were rushed and under-developed. I imagine the devs just designed the levels.... then put shields in them. I imagine someone pointed out the potential being missed, and received in response a reminder that Sonic 3 was so hard up for meeting its deadline that it was about to be chopped in half.



So, I would lift the gameplay brought by shields by:
* adding character (somehow, I don't know how).
* adding meaning (they make a bigger difference somehow without being more OP).
* redesign their controls to something that's more fun and interesting (again, haven't thought of how)
* creating paths that require a shield, BUT never making these paths obligatory, nor even obvious.



I am afraid this will kick off a heap of "Yo I want the <element> shield with move X and protection Y!" posts. Keep it about game design people. />

Wow look at all the SCZ/LRZ boss agreements coming out of the woodwork. I guess I was kind of impressed by LRZ boss's challenge (which is perfectly fitting imo) to really dwell on the stand-and-wait aspect of it. Personal tastes aside, at least everyone can understand their criticisms. I didn't realise it was so shared. Good to know. Oh, but hey, what about Sandopolis act 1?! Now that guy bored me.

Also seems I'm the only one who liked how similar the characters were (and wished Knuckles was even more similar). Complete side note, I loved that Tails did have 1 Tails-exclusive area in Hidden Palace Zone. Like one explicit nod from the developers that Tails is still definitely part of the game.

The Sonic Rush ring loss mechanism has always sounded ok to me, but I've only played the (3) games enough to finish them probably only once each. So I've never really thought critically about how well it plays out.

Wow, for me Sky Chase was one of the most relieving experiences I've had in a game. When I was a kid, before level select was a thing, when running out of lives meant going back to the start of the umpteen zones that were Sonic 2... Metropolis Zone was a BIIIIIITCH. Then FINALLY you complete it and you're like WTF no boss??? ACT 3 WTF?!?!!!

When Sky Chase started, with that music, I couldn't have needed it more.

So while I get what you're saying and I too find it pretty dull to play, if there's ever an example of mixing it up to give the player a break I think that's what Sky Chase is.



@EricTheSquirrel
So then what do you think of Taxman's widescreen Sonic 2, regarding wiggle room?

Don't forget to comment with disagreements too if anyone has any. It's a good way to explore ways to think about things.
So I'm gonna do some of that now.

winterhell, on 19 July 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Really? I mean, sure when it's a walkover in 3 seconds that's a bit of a doddle, but actually having bosses that don't patronise the player with stupid wait-for-the-invulnerability sequences is a huge plus in my book. Hmm, though on second thought, perhaps you're referring to exactly what you said - consecutive hits. Those times when you drop on top of the boss and just camp there for a bit. Mmm, ok. So something like Angel Island Act 1, I see what you're saying. But something like Mushroom Hill Act 1, I think that's still good. But honestly I think I found it enjoyable if I could dispatch a boss quickly with that bouncing business... I don't think there were too many like this.

Mr Lange, on 19 July 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

I never noticed it bothering me but I can't say I disagree. I found it amusing in Sandopolis, where if you get knocked into a sandfall you get stuck in it, slowing riding it down and trapped in your invulnerable state with no control until you touch the ground.

DigitalDuck, on 19 July 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Yeah, rings have issues. The tricky part I find is that they're part of the games' freedom too. I drop rings like it's the in thing to do, but the infinity business is certainly cheap. Honestly the forgiving nature of rings probably also allowed the developers to get a bit sloppy about allowing dick moves. I definitely like how rings work fundamentally; that uniqueness someone mentioned, and chasing them can be fun. In fact I'd happily see more thought go into how that works - the chasing part. Being a classic fan, I find the Sonic Unleased style, or anything else, sacrilege. XD

Dark Sonic, on 19 July 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Totally a thing. Invincible enemies don't strike me as a design problem by default; it could just be an intelligent fireball with the same effect. But the lack of warning issue I agree with. Mario games make a point out of preventing dick moves. Sonic games' design remember to avoid them... usually.

DigitalDuck, on 19 July 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

This is something I actually like. In fact, I don't like how Knuckles' jump is lower; it pretty much ruins playing him for me. I agree with the notion though, but I have a Ryu vs Ken attitude about it. I'm all for small differences that don't stick out too much, so you can kind of develop a preference as opposed to choosing which clear advantage to go with.

For example; in Sonic 3 split-screen, Sonic runs a tiny bit faster than Knuckles, while Knuckles has insanely strong deceleration. Works well imo. But Tails has a significantly higher jump, and since we notice jumping all the time, I think that's too big a change, while his slow running basically makes him unusable. These characteristic make sense, but they also make the character less enjoyable for me.

In Sonic Classic Heroes, Sonic runs a little bit faster than the other 2. It's small, but you can definitely feel it, and it tears at me heh. It's so easy to get used to Sonic then play one of the others and feel a bit disappointed.

Amy though, I agree. I guess I'm fine with her being so different because it's just Amy. XD


Does anyone agree/disagree with the criticism in the opening post?