Technically speaking, LocalH still owns the forums and the S2Beta main page. Retro is technically Scarred Sun's.
Technically.
Technically.
Some important information you all should be in on
#198
WiteoutKing 
Posted 20 October 2007 - 03:33 AM
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Perhaps an altogether new name is in order? It is a merger of two fairly gigantic sites, one a research and hacking forum, the other a research and hacking wiki. I hate to throw out what could be an utterly campy name (because of its acronym nature), but maybe something like Sonic Hacking and Research Portal (SHARP)? I dunno, throwing stuff out there. I agree it's probably a moot point, but a fresh name can at least give the people inside and out the feel of a fresh (re)start.
#199
Chimpo
Posted 20 October 2007 - 04:46 AM
Why the fuck do we need a new name at all when the current one is just fine. And if this thread hasn't proven to you already, the people inside apparently don't want a fresh start, and most of us hate the people outside.
Honestly, as Tweaker mentioned the forum is exactly the same, all that change was our logo.
Like this
A)
B)
Nobody likes it, but that doesn't stop Solid Snake from being awesome.
Although it's not a valid example.
A) Our logo is awesome.
B) We're all a bunch of flaming faggots that go nuclear over a name and logo change that has no real affect on the overall status of the forum or site since it's preserved oh so well like it was from its last update nearly a year ago. So no, we're not Solid Snake. We're Raiden.
Honestly, as Tweaker mentioned the forum is exactly the same, all that change was our logo.
Like this
A)
B)
Nobody likes it, but that doesn't stop Solid Snake from being awesome.
Although it's not a valid example.
A) Our logo is awesome.
B) We're all a bunch of flaming faggots that go nuclear over a name and logo change that has no real affect on the overall status of the forum or site since it's preserved oh so well like it was from its last update nearly a year ago. So no, we're not Solid Snake. We're Raiden.
This post has been edited by Chimpo: 20 October 2007 - 04:53 AM
#201
Scarred Sun
Posted 20 October 2007 - 05:08 PM
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As I sort of glossed over at the beginning of the topic, there was some discussion on whether or not to change the name to something neutral, and in the end, we just thought it was silly to do so (also: couldn't really think of anything that fit better.) I've done the whole "campy, unique name" thing with SHIT, and frankly, the general response I got was that it was "unprofessional" and therefore none of the content could be taken seriously (which I don't quite understand the rationale behind, but whatever) or that it was causing work/school filters to trip up and block it. That's why the subdomain is info instead of shit now. When the original name for Sonic Retro was being brainstormed, though, Badnik came up, and I always kind of liked that, and that's why the IRC net has that name. However, Retro does pull a higher unique visitor number (S2Beta has around 5000 so far this month, Retro roughly double that) and it'd make no sense to confuse those people in addition.
I know the subject of the new registrations (and in some cases, their inability to spell even their own names D:) has come up on IRC a couple of times and I'd also like to address that. Basically, my feelings on the subject are that so long as they're not creating general havoc, I don't care. Getting as wide an audience as possible is what will make sure this scene is around 5 years from now. It's not enough to have drx, hxc, ICEknight, rika, puto—we need at least five of each of these folks imo, as these are all examples of people really important to the community (yes, I could have listed at least two dozen more, so don't bawwww.) The best way to do that is to attract people outside our close-knit groups. That's why I think places like TSS' ROM Hacking board and GB are important—they introduce our ideas to a new audience that maybe otherwise wouldn't consider Sonic research and hacking. Moreover, I think that the occasional misfit or idiot is worth the tradeoff we get when someone new comes in and blows us all away. I can list many people here who started either as a complete moron or is a ban dodger or came from a, shall we say, less respected community, but totally have their place here. Just saying, you know.
Third (since I'm just addressing everything I've been meaning to in one post, get over it), I'm sort of disheartened by this notion lately that you need to know ASM to "matter" in this community. There are tons of opportunities and ideas that can be taken by anyone, regardless of their technical finesse. You just have to poke around a bit. Also, and though this isn't as much a problem here as it elsewhere, I don't think ASM is the be-all and end-all as to whether you're a good hacker/game designer or not. For instance, Sonic 1 The Blue Blur is pretty awesome hack made by Schwa from Acmlm's that, despite the fact that only hacking utilities appear to have been used, is a fun and COMPLETE game (note: not just GHZ.) Really, just having new levels to play though is enough for me, and probably a lot of folks.
Finally, if you really do love the Sonic 2 Beta page, why not help out? The site's been pretty dead lately, so here's your chance. A lot of stuff regarding S2NA still isn't on the site, and I need to make a master list of contributors, anyway, so submit something. :P
I know the subject of the new registrations (and in some cases, their inability to spell even their own names D:) has come up on IRC a couple of times and I'd also like to address that. Basically, my feelings on the subject are that so long as they're not creating general havoc, I don't care. Getting as wide an audience as possible is what will make sure this scene is around 5 years from now. It's not enough to have drx, hxc, ICEknight, rika, puto—we need at least five of each of these folks imo, as these are all examples of people really important to the community (yes, I could have listed at least two dozen more, so don't bawwww.) The best way to do that is to attract people outside our close-knit groups. That's why I think places like TSS' ROM Hacking board and GB are important—they introduce our ideas to a new audience that maybe otherwise wouldn't consider Sonic research and hacking. Moreover, I think that the occasional misfit or idiot is worth the tradeoff we get when someone new comes in and blows us all away. I can list many people here who started either as a complete moron or is a ban dodger or came from a, shall we say, less respected community, but totally have their place here. Just saying, you know.
Third (since I'm just addressing everything I've been meaning to in one post, get over it), I'm sort of disheartened by this notion lately that you need to know ASM to "matter" in this community. There are tons of opportunities and ideas that can be taken by anyone, regardless of their technical finesse. You just have to poke around a bit. Also, and though this isn't as much a problem here as it elsewhere, I don't think ASM is the be-all and end-all as to whether you're a good hacker/game designer or not. For instance, Sonic 1 The Blue Blur is pretty awesome hack made by Schwa from Acmlm's that, despite the fact that only hacking utilities appear to have been used, is a fun and COMPLETE game (note: not just GHZ.) Really, just having new levels to play though is enough for me, and probably a lot of folks.
Finally, if you really do love the Sonic 2 Beta page, why not help out? The site's been pretty dead lately, so here's your chance. A lot of stuff regarding S2NA still isn't on the site, and I need to make a master list of contributors, anyway, so submit something. :P
#203
Metal Man88
Posted 21 October 2007 - 05:09 PM
I already went over the name thing until blue in the face, so I won't speak on that point again, but...
By what (factual, not governmental) authority do you dictate how many of 'each person' of the major scene people are needed here? Many of them are unique in their capabilities, to the extent that, your 'wider net' idea, if successful, would not so much produce clones of these people but rather get us different people. That's all in good, but I think it's the wrong approach that we need more quantity of people to the extent it becomes the main focus above other things. This site and community has survived roughly eight years without you and your approach, and I believe it could continue on without it too. However, so far I haven't seen any damaging effects, so I will simply continue on with my point: let in whom you may (following the tests and stuff, of course) but unless they are truly eager to follow the rules and work within the time-honored ways, they probably won't get anywhere.
The problem is that this community, by definition, involves the hacking and reverse engineering of a series of games—a technically illegal activity. If it becomes too widespread, then companies like Sega may see it as a threat to their revenue. As it is, they have done nothing despite various Sega types hearing about the work done here, but one can never be too careful.
Therefore, if your idea truly hit it off and it went from a niche to a mainstream, said transition could spell legal doom for the entire aspect—something which I think would put quite a damper on even doing current levels of stuff.
I am not 100% up to date with the hacking aspect, but from what I know, ASM is where it's at because it can change the most stuff. You don't need to know ASM to contribute knowledge and such, but if you're in it for hacking, I'd think the best way to go without ASM knowledge would be to try to recruit aid of those who did know ASM. Similar to how today's video games have programmers, designers, etc.
The use of hacking applications is still valid, but limited. Hence why it (possibly unfairly) gets knocked in the scene.
Mainly, the problem is you merged an elitist hacking/scene group with some wider, all-encompassing idea. I try to accept it, but every time I read posts praising the merger or explaining why, it comes up as a massive amount of logical errors to me. Mainly, the ideals of a wider information database aspect clash with that of a guild-like community which holds its information close to itself. Similarly, members of the wider-area persuasion are likely to crash into those who still believe in the ways of S2B.
However, the merger is unlikely to create any real damage, as both sides stay separate, with only those interested in doing both going across to the other side. I'm just thinking that you have a lot of good ideas, that are being used at the wrong place. Just because many S2B members joined your forum didn't mean they all wanted to become your forum. It simply meant you needed to appeal to your 'wider audience' moreso than the 'closed audience' here with your forum, which with enough time and work could probably become the wide-ranging do-everything site. Free from some of the restrictions of S2B, it could flourish by filling in a niche which is, truly, empty: The wide-open hacking scene, as opposed to the many little closed ones.
In short, your ideas are valid and interesting, but they do not seem to coexist well with the ideas S2B at least until now held, which ran counter to it, as such:
* A closed, idiot-free forum to discuss hacking, Sonic, et al
* A tendency to discourage overly outlandish or bizarre ideas, but at the same time encouraging those which have evidence of being plausible or successful
* A devoted, small group of elite hackers/researches/etc which stay around for the long term, regardless of how 'popular' the place is
* General secrecy of ideas when they are first shared, over time appearing on the site and becoming open to the public
* The most technical hacking around, pushing the envelope with ASM hacking and such
* Focus around, thus, teaching people ASM and showing them how to do it
* A rank-and-file hierarchy of sorts, not explicit but it seems to pervade some areas
* Specialization in one topic or two above all others, with more broad ideas and topics usually being made narrow so as to be more effective
Many of these contradict your ideas and sayings. Some may bend or vanish to accomodate you, but it would take many months to erase the more basic prospects. While I only speak for myself, I just wanted you to know the gist of it. If it's old news, then just ignore it, but... ironically, I say this mainly because I want to help you avoid snags, not so much to prevent your ideas from working.
By what (factual, not governmental) authority do you dictate how many of 'each person' of the major scene people are needed here? Many of them are unique in their capabilities, to the extent that, your 'wider net' idea, if successful, would not so much produce clones of these people but rather get us different people. That's all in good, but I think it's the wrong approach that we need more quantity of people to the extent it becomes the main focus above other things. This site and community has survived roughly eight years without you and your approach, and I believe it could continue on without it too. However, so far I haven't seen any damaging effects, so I will simply continue on with my point: let in whom you may (following the tests and stuff, of course) but unless they are truly eager to follow the rules and work within the time-honored ways, they probably won't get anywhere.
The problem is that this community, by definition, involves the hacking and reverse engineering of a series of games—a technically illegal activity. If it becomes too widespread, then companies like Sega may see it as a threat to their revenue. As it is, they have done nothing despite various Sega types hearing about the work done here, but one can never be too careful.
Therefore, if your idea truly hit it off and it went from a niche to a mainstream, said transition could spell legal doom for the entire aspect—something which I think would put quite a damper on even doing current levels of stuff.
I am not 100% up to date with the hacking aspect, but from what I know, ASM is where it's at because it can change the most stuff. You don't need to know ASM to contribute knowledge and such, but if you're in it for hacking, I'd think the best way to go without ASM knowledge would be to try to recruit aid of those who did know ASM. Similar to how today's video games have programmers, designers, etc.
The use of hacking applications is still valid, but limited. Hence why it (possibly unfairly) gets knocked in the scene.
Mainly, the problem is you merged an elitist hacking/scene group with some wider, all-encompassing idea. I try to accept it, but every time I read posts praising the merger or explaining why, it comes up as a massive amount of logical errors to me. Mainly, the ideals of a wider information database aspect clash with that of a guild-like community which holds its information close to itself. Similarly, members of the wider-area persuasion are likely to crash into those who still believe in the ways of S2B.
However, the merger is unlikely to create any real damage, as both sides stay separate, with only those interested in doing both going across to the other side. I'm just thinking that you have a lot of good ideas, that are being used at the wrong place. Just because many S2B members joined your forum didn't mean they all wanted to become your forum. It simply meant you needed to appeal to your 'wider audience' moreso than the 'closed audience' here with your forum, which with enough time and work could probably become the wide-ranging do-everything site. Free from some of the restrictions of S2B, it could flourish by filling in a niche which is, truly, empty: The wide-open hacking scene, as opposed to the many little closed ones.
In short, your ideas are valid and interesting, but they do not seem to coexist well with the ideas S2B at least until now held, which ran counter to it, as such:
* A closed, idiot-free forum to discuss hacking, Sonic, et al
* A tendency to discourage overly outlandish or bizarre ideas, but at the same time encouraging those which have evidence of being plausible or successful
* A devoted, small group of elite hackers/researches/etc which stay around for the long term, regardless of how 'popular' the place is
* General secrecy of ideas when they are first shared, over time appearing on the site and becoming open to the public
* The most technical hacking around, pushing the envelope with ASM hacking and such
* Focus around, thus, teaching people ASM and showing them how to do it
* A rank-and-file hierarchy of sorts, not explicit but it seems to pervade some areas
* Specialization in one topic or two above all others, with more broad ideas and topics usually being made narrow so as to be more effective
Many of these contradict your ideas and sayings. Some may bend or vanish to accomodate you, but it would take many months to erase the more basic prospects. While I only speak for myself, I just wanted you to know the gist of it. If it's old news, then just ignore it, but... ironically, I say this mainly because I want to help you avoid snags, not so much to prevent your ideas from working.
This post has been edited by Metal_Man88: 21 October 2007 - 05:14 PM
#204
Tweaker
Posted 21 October 2007 - 05:26 PM
Right, I'm gonna adopt a stance that may go down poorly, but...
Deal with it. I'm tired of hearing it. If you're so morally opposed to what we're doing, then don't associate yourself with this community. But I firmly believe this is what's best for this community, and if you can't accept that, then I don't think the admin-member relationship is gonna go down so well. If you're truly willing to hinder the progress of the community over something as trivial as principle of times long past, then maybe you don't really understand what we're trying to do.
Deal with it. I'm tired of hearing it. If you're so morally opposed to what we're doing, then don't associate yourself with this community. But I firmly believe this is what's best for this community, and if you can't accept that, then I don't think the admin-member relationship is gonna go down so well. If you're truly willing to hinder the progress of the community over something as trivial as principle of times long past, then maybe you don't really understand what we're trying to do.
#205
Metal Man88
Posted 21 October 2007 - 05:29 PM
Tweaker, on Oct 21 2007, 03:26 PM, said:
I'm tired of hearing it.
Then I shall cease speaking of it immediately.
#206
Hayate
Posted 22 October 2007 - 07:28 AM
My two cents on this: since I had a long hiatus from "s2beta" once again and just returned a few days ago, I never did get to see whatever went on with the merge, but I think it was a damn good idea. I love the SR logo personally, and while I used to use the SR wiki a little, it's now a lot easier and tidier looking. There's just one thing though... is there any chance we'll get an option to use the blue SR theme instead of the brown s2beta one for both the wiki and the forum? I personally preferred the blue one, but that's just my opinion so meh.
#207
Scarred Sun
Posted 22 October 2007 - 09:20 AM
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Keiji, on Oct 22 2007, 08:28 AM, said:
My two cents on this: since I had a long hiatus from "s2beta" once again and just returned a few days ago, I never did get to see whatever went on with the merge, but I think it was a damn good idea. I love the SR logo personally, and while I used to use the SR wiki a little, it's now a lot easier and tidier looking. There's just one thing though... is there any chance we'll get an option to use the blue SR theme instead of the brown s2beta one for both the wiki and the forum? I personally preferred the blue one, but that's just my opinion so meh.
The blue theme is still available for the wiki (under Special:Preferences, choose "Retro"); I had the blue skin for the forums up for a little bit, but it's having a lot of problems and I need to redo it for these forums.
#208
muteKi
Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:20 PM
Ah, I was just wondering about that myself. Nice to know it's in the works.
Also, Supersonic for the wiki itself would also be cool as hell, because I'm not really into trying to read dark text on a lighter screen. The added light always seems to distract me, and the hyperlink yellow does not go well with the dark drab background.
Also, Supersonic for the wiki itself would also be cool as hell, because I'm not really into trying to read dark text on a lighter screen. The added light always seems to distract me, and the hyperlink yellow does not go well with the dark drab background.
This post has been edited by The 無敵: 22 October 2007 - 12:24 PM
#209
OrdosAlpha
Posted 22 October 2007 - 02:44 PM
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Tweaker, on Oct 21 2007, 11:26 PM, said:
Deal with it. I'm tired of hearing it. If you're so morally opposed to what we're doing, then don't associate yourself with this community. But I firmly believe this is what's best for this community, and if you can't accept that, then I don't think the admin-member relationship is gonna go down so well. If you're truly willing to hinder the progress of the community over something as trivial as principle of times long past, then maybe you don't really understand what we're trying to do.
This statement should have been made sooner, Tweaker. Although, kudos for being more subtle than I would have been.
#210
Dark Sonic
Posted 22 October 2007 - 07:46 PM
Scarred Sun, on Oct 22 2007, 06:20 AM, said:
The blue theme is still available for the wiki (under Special:Preferences, choose "Retro"); I had the blue skin for the forums up for a little bit, but it's having a lot of problems and I need to redo it for these forums.
That's good to hear. If it's skin bugs you're looking for by the way, Super Sonic MK II has no logo on top (Neither S2B or Sonic Retro. Just a link that says IBP or something)