[Quickman]

Dioxaz, on Dec 30 2006, 08:49 PM, said:

Quickman, on Dec 30 2006, 02:00 PM, said:

Dioxaz, on Dec 30 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

This reminds me one thing (I ignore if it's been already pointed out), you can hear some Jam bits in PCM samples 9F and A0 of Sonic 3 (go to Stealth's topic for that), when played at 13 KHz instead of the standard 11 KHz rate.

And this time, I'm sure I'm not "jammin" (unlike my dodgy suggested similarity about Icecap).

And if you play Stairway to Heaven backwards you can hear Satanic voices.

Absolutely (in a certain manner*), but it was an accident:
http://www.triplo.com/ev/reversal/

*reversing the songs indeed do not give you the exact reversal interpretation, but it almost sounds like (of course, all that is only the human's imagination and mustn't be taken seriously)

I was using that as an example of people hearing associations that aren't there. I instinctively distrust any claim that an MJ song has anything to do with a sound from S3, unless a *musical* connection (similar chord patterns, etc) can be made.

[Tweaker]

Dioxaz, on Dec 30 2006, 03:49 PM, said:

Quickman, on Dec 30 2006, 02:00 PM, said:

Dioxaz, on Dec 30 2006, 05:13 PM, said:

This reminds me one thing (I ignore if it's been already pointed out), you can hear some Jam bits in PCM samples 9F and A0 of Sonic 3 (go to Stealth's topic for that), when played at 13 KHz instead of the standard 11 KHz rate.

And this time, I'm sure I'm not "jammin" (unlike my dodgy suggested similarity about Icecap).

And if you play Stairway to Heaven backwards you can hear Satanic voices.

Absolutely (in a certain manner*), but it was an accident:
http://www.triplo.com/ev/reversal/

*reversing the songs indeed do not give you the exact reversal interpretation, but it almost sounds like (of course, all that is only the human's imagination and mustn't be taken seriously)

And, here's the ultimate proof that Dioxaz is a complete moron:

- Exerpt from Jam (Track 1 of Michael Jackson's album, Dangerous)
- Sample A0 played at a 13500 Hz frequency rate

This way, A0 sounds like being sampled straight from Jam (or it might be another remix/version). Of course, I can be entirely mistaken and the sound being produced/recreated for the game, but... even this way, it still sounds similar.

"Puto" said:

Knuckles' theme from S3 is in Sonic Pocket Adventure, which probably means that Sega had no copyright-related problems with it.

Are you sure of that? That song is almost only made with PCM samples (mostly the B2-B3 one). Or you were referring to the S3K version.

HOLY SHIT, that's a fucking perfect match. Nice find indeed!

[Shade]

Okay, so that's fucking identical. Awesome find.

Hivebrain, eat your heart out.

[Dioxaz]

Replying to Quickman: Of course, I understood that.

But it happens in this case that it seems to be more than a simple coincidence. The sound sounds like recorded/sampled from a song. And, in particular, Jam. The two orch hits are almost identical of not completely identical (if you forget about the low resolution on A0).

OK, they may have sampled this song randomly (like they could have chosen any song) and it could prove nothing. But in this case they must have the authorization from MJ to borrow even the smallest snippest of the song (mainly that one, which is easily recognizable).

------------

EDIT: Oops, you guys seconded me. Thank you. ^^

This post has been edited by Dioxaz: 30 December 2006 - 05:37 PM

[Tweaker]

Here's an overlay mp3:

http://www.fileden.c.../jamoverlay.mp3

That is literally fucking identical. You can even hear him say Jam!

EDIT: I've also made a downgraded version of the Jam sample. While it sounds better than A0, it ends up the same - http://www.fileden.c...amdowngrade.wav

[Dioxaz]

Nice! That was pretty convincing actually.

It still sounds better because the original must have been over-compressed (I mean in the dynamics domain, not the data) to make it sound the loudest possible. Add to that the lossy ADPCM-like compression that it "suffered" from in the game.

EDIT: I finally made up a downgraded version of my own:
http://dioxaz.free.f...downgraded2.wav

What I did is resampling to 13500 Hz (and converting to mono), applying dynamics compression (used a preset called "compander" in Adobe Audition), lowpass-filtered a tiny bit of the treble parts to narrow the frequency response* and finally boosted up the volume to match the original sound.

*actually, the resulting narrowed frequency response in the original sound may be a side effect of the ingame data compression

This post has been edited by Dioxaz: 30 December 2006 - 06:23 PM

[MK]

Wow, now THAT is amazing. I always dismissed the Jam connection as coincidence, but this is conclusive proof o_O

This post has been edited by MK: 30 December 2006 - 11:01 PM

[ICEknight]

They could have just kept the sound samples from the time MJ was going to be involved, but that doesn't mean he had anything to do with the music we got in the end.

...Now that I think of it, they might have changed those certain tracks because they used copyrighted samples, and just changed them altogether to avoid any legal issues.

[MK]

It actually explains quite a bit.

Roger Hector said MJ's songs were scrapped. Now, we all know S3 was rushed. So perhaps they simply modified the songs. The raw clip is very clearly a direct rip from "Jam", so when Hector said the stuff was removed, apparently he was refering to a Hot Coffee manouver: the stuff was simply made to be not accessable in the game, but not removed entirely.

As for the songs replaced in S&K Collection, that would appear to be coincidence. Almost all the other raw sound data in that set are the ones used a lot in CNZ, ICZ, and LBZ, among others, stuff they couldn't duplicate well back then, apparently.

So, chances are, somewhere, there's a beta cart with at least slightly different sounding tracks of maybe all of the songs. But not enough to go out looking for similarities between stuff like LBZ and MJ songs.

PS: In a fit of irony, I swear I recognize 2 of those other raw clips from somewhere. I'll look for the song X)

This post has been edited by MK: 31 December 2006 - 01:34 PM

[evilhamwizard]

Here's two more:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6BZXD6GM

The first one (glass braking) should be the one from Jam. The second one should also be from Jam, because if you listen closely to the end of the S3 clip, you can hear a deep male voice begin to say something. There are a couple more in Jam, but there are also some clips that could've been from other MJ songs that were either slown down or sped up (for example, the "Go" sound was probably from MJ's Speed Demon but sped up). MJ's "Ooooh" can also be heard in S3 but I think most of them are slowed down or recreated by someone else.

But one things for sure, who ever finalized Carnival Night really liked MJ's Jam.

[Dioxaz]

ICEknight, on Dec 31 2006, 12:31 PM, said:

They could have just kept the sound samples from the time MJ was going to be involved, but that doesn't mean he had anything to do with the music we got in the end.

Indeed. It's true that at a time I (and probably some other people) was truly believing he was involved with the songs we all know. But it could be only an influence. But definitely not a negligible one, because of those similarities that have been found.

ICEknight, on Dec 31 2006, 12:31 PM, said:

...Now that I think of it, they might have changed those certain tracks because they used copyrighted samples, and just changed them altogether to avoid any legal issues.

Highly possible, because the "Jam" one is one of the most recognizable. But playing it at higher or slower pitch makes it less recognizable (and usable into the game without people noticing it came from Jam).

Kool-Aid-Man, on Dec 31 2006, 04:26 PM, said:

The second one should also be from Jam, because if you listen closely to the end of the S3 clip, you can hear a deep male voice begin to say something.

He was beginning to repeat "Jam" ("Jam Jam, Here Comes The Man", etc actually). This hit announces the rap part (performed by Heavy D) of the song Jam.

EDIT: Well, after carefully listening again to that sample -- is it the A0? — I couldn't find what you were referring to, the male voice performing at the same time as the brass or orchestra hit. And for the A2 sample, it sounds too short and too different to be the same as the one you compared it to.

Kool-Aid-Man, on Dec 31 2006, 04:26 PM, said:

There are a couple more in Jam, but there are also some clips that could've been from other MJ songs that were either slown down or sped up (for example, the "Go" sound was probably from MJ's Speed Demon but sped up). MJ's "Ooooh" can also be heard in S3 but I think most of them are slowed down or recreated by someone else.

Hmm... to me, not really. They sound like generic vocal samples (like the ones you usually find on those early sample CD-ROMs such as the X-Static Goldmine made by Polestar Magnetics), noticeably, the "Go" (not the one with the overlayed snare) which is classic of Techno/Dance Music of that time.

Of course, it doesn't mean there aren't chances that there was previously some real samples of MJ's voice instead.

This post has been edited by Dioxaz: 31 December 2006 - 06:45 PM

[Bibin]

Hello, this is my first post here. I noticed waaaay back on page 2/3 that there's the two similar samples with the 'jam' recording snippit. I realized that they are very similar, but the big difference is that they are at different.... uhm... I know the term, it's not coming now.... uh, they're at different amounts-of-kilohertz-sampling-rate-something :P SO I took the sample from MJ's song and put it to 12 kHZ. They sound much more similar, but the A0_13k5.wav sample still sounds like it's at a lower sampling rate (that's it!)

However, my father is a musician (search "crew of seven" on CDbaby.com for his album) and since he is a musician, it has led me to have pretty good ears. I can tell that the two chords are indeed the same chords at different sampling rates.

Original JAM sample
http://bibinson.sitesled.com/jam.wav

Sample A0
http://bibinson.site...com/A0_13k5.wav

Lower sampling rate JAM sample
http://bibinson.site...com/jam_low.wav

[Tweaker]

You mean it's downsampled. =P

And yeah, that's what me and Dioxaz did above. I think it's been established that this is an absolute connection, no questions asked. It's bizarre, really, but to be honest, I'm not all too surprised.

Welcome to the boards, by the way!

[Bibin]

Thanks for your welcome and quick reply. I've noticed that there used to be trial posts- is that still present, and am I unwittingly using them up until I'm perhaps welcomed officially into the community and I-


Anyway, not to get offtopic, uhm.... the megaupload link doesn't work; there's no download link on that page. I don't mean like, megaupload-style hard to find, I mean there's none at all.

[Gamerguy]

I just obtained the entire Michael Jackson discography, and I'll be listening over the next couple of days to see if I can find any similarities. Awesome finds in this topic.