[Billy]

Aerosol is right, and consequently I have to say I have very mixed feelings about all of this. Stealth has given so much to this community over many years, all for free. So he probably deserves some cash kick-back, for sure. Stealth's constant activity of late has certainly been a blessing. In the past he'd just kind of show up now and again and release something cool, no doubt due to his busy schedule.

However, I really have very little interest in HCGE, Stealth's admitted main focus. I say this as an amateur game developer. HCGE seems so limiting (yes I've read the documentation); why should I make games as if I were making them for a Sega Genesis with a custom scripting language when I could much more easily make the same game using Unity using C#, or UE4 using C++ and/or blueprints. However, I feel like it has potential and I'd be fully inclined to change my opinion and donate if I feel like, after a few updates, HCGE is worth my time. This was the whole point of the HC project, after all.

It kinda feels shitty to say, but I can also say that I'm not really interested in Sonic Megamix either. Megamix has seen years without an official release, and I don't really feel like donating money until I can be sure that Team Megamix can deliver. That said, everything they have produced (even in unfinished form) has been quality work, again given to us for free. Again, it feels really shitty to say that, but I don't have a lot of money, so I can't go throwing money at stuff that may never interest me or see the light of day; this is why I don't donate to kickstarters. I could donate just a few dollars every month, but I'm very conflicted on whether even that would be worth it.

If it sounds like my opinion is flip-flopping, that's because it is. And let me emphasize that regardless if all of this, I have immense respect for Stealth and all the things he has done.

[Black Squirrel]

Megamix is one of those things where it's popular because it exists in a "finished" form (I.e. you can play it from beginning to end). Most hacks and fangames don't get to that stage, so you can be a bit more lenient on quality.

It was never a perfect hack by any means. Much of the level designs involve(d) speeding into a bunch of rings, then speeding into an enemy and losing them all. There is no finesse with Sonic, and given the extraordinary amount of expertise on this board, it always felt it could be better in terms of visuals and audio. The first stage is the YELLOW LEVEL, the second the GREY LEVEL, but idk that might have been fixed by now.


The element of profiting from the works of others (e.g. Sega, Capcom) is a little murky. This isn't quite like that, but idk, it doesn't sit well. But I second the others - people can spend their money as they wish and I mean no disrespect to Steath and his enormous contributions over the years.


(although I'm a tiny bit biased because I made a slightly wonky game, didn't ask for anything in advance and haven't even broken even on the Android developer license).

[MotorRoach]

Hez, on Today, 10:00 AM, said:

Hell, those people may have done so much more with donations if they had the nerve to ask.

Does that means that I can ask for donations for the things I make in this community as well? They're nowhere in the same level of hacking discoveries, but...

(Yes, this is a serious question. My financial situation went from bad to even worse just today)

This post has been edited by MotorRoach: Today, 03:44 PM

[Neo]

Billy, on Today, 10:33 AM, said:

Stealth has given so much to this community over many years, all for free.

Reminder that the original SonED was paid software

[Stealth]

I see that absolutely everybody has actually visited and read the actual Patreon page. Should have known I wouldn't be able to get away with something like this



Seriously, that's what some people are behaving like it looks like. Maybe actually read it? I don't know

It's a pretty pointless argument anyway since I'm not going to take it down or anything, or even change my mind about what I'm doing first. I'm going to leave it up, I'm going to mention it when I feel like it, and I'm going to start by pleasing the people who wanted to help who happen to be Sonic fans by working on "Sonic 1 Megamix" as I promised as a direct response to their generocity

I want to turn my projects, all of my projects, into my full-time work. I have a lot of them. They are big. They need a lot of attention and complex stuff that I just can't do to them in-between everything else.

Megamix hasn't been finished for 11 years? I've been dealing with a ton of various stuff during that time just to make a living, and I kept pushing it anyway, and in all that time I never asked for anything, not even when Megamix won a supposed cash prize from the hacking contest at least twice and none of us ever received it, even to this day.

HCGE/E02 has incidentally been in development for 11 years as well, not counting 7 years of development for its predecessor, and anything else I did before that, and it looks "limiting" and "not worth [your] time? The thing comes from prior to 1997. I've been trying to get the time to build it for that long, and I haven't been able to in large part due to the fact that I have to make a living. HCGE certainly hasn't been helping because I don't want to force hobby people to pay anything, and I haven't asked except for if hell freezes over and somebody decides to build a commercial game with it. To-date I've only gotten a very limited number of people who even tried to use it as a hobby, and each and every one of them have quit for one reason or another. Do you want like wide-screen and a million colors? Well I'm sorry, but it's going to have to take a backseat to core engine and editor functionality and features, because I don't want to be responsible for people churning out "pretty"-looking crap. I'm building a game engine, not a color playground. Help me or stop whining and wait until I'm allowed to get around to actually doing something like that; it's just that simple of a choice, and you do have the choice. Just make it and move on

$1 won't do shit, honestly. $64 won't really do shit, either. A few hundred $1's, though, that's getting somewhere. I'm aiming big, going full-time with what I want to do, how I want to do it. This is the exact opposite of developing under someone else and/or for money on deadlines or having to forsake wild ideas or complex implementation for what can almost be guaranteed to be well-functioning and actually done within the amount of time that is available to me; this is on my terms so that I can take however long it actually takes to do whatever actually needs to be done to make whatever it is that I'm doing the best that it can possibly be with me as developer, and that's exactly what I told people. They know this going in, and still I already have 10 patrons so far. If you check the full list, you'll find that they're not all "random nobodies", as well, and I resent being made to put it that way because these people are just plain awesome

I don't know what else can possibly be said. I don't care who hasn't read or doesn't read it; I'm not going to repeat myself. I can't be bothered to spend any more time on people who aren't put out in the least by any of this and can only stand to potentially benefit from it being ridiculous

I'm going to run this Patreon.
Megamix is going to be one of the projects that I spend any time developing while the Patreon is open.

There is nothing more to discuss regarding the subject, particularly given that this is supposed to be the new legitimate Sonic Megamix project thread that has little-to-nothing at all to do with the fact that there even exists a Patreon.

I guess I do have to thank those of you who participated in all of this, though. I didn't quite feel right before; now, this really does feel like an actual Sonic Megamix thread.

[Hez]

MotorRoach, on Today, 03:41 PM, said:

Hez, on Today, 10:00 AM, said:

Hell, those people may have done so much more with donations if they had the nerve to ask.

Does that means that I can ask for donations for the things I make in this community as well? They're nowhere in the same level of hacking discoveries, but... />

(Yes, this is a serious question. My financial situation went from bad to even worse just today)

If you want. I'd hate for this to become a thing, but its a free country.

Stealth, on Today, 03:55 PM, said:

I see that absolutely everybody has actually visited and read the actual Patreon page. Should have known I wouldn't be able to get away with something like this



Seriously, that's what some people are behaving like it looks like. Maybe actually read it? I don't know

It's a pretty pointless argument anyway since I'm not going to take it down or anything, or even change my mind about what I'm doing first. I'm going to leave it up, I'm going to mention it when I feel like it, and I'm going to start by pleasing the people who wanted to help who happen to be Sonic fans by working on "Sonic 1 Megamix" as I promised as a direct response to their generocity

I want to turn my projects, all of my projects, into my full-time work. I have a lot of them. They are big. They need a lot of attention and complex stuff that I just can't do to them in-between everything else.

Megamix hasn't been finished for 11 years? I've been dealing with a ton of various stuff during that time just to make a living, and I kept pushing it anyway, and in all that time I never asked for anything, not even when Megamix won a supposed cash prize from the hacking contest at least twice and none of us ever received it, even to this day.

HCGE/E02 has incidentally been in development for 11 years as well, not counting 7 years of development for its predecessor, and anything else I did before that, and it looks "limiting" and "not worth [your] time? The thing comes from prior to 1997. I've been trying to get the time to build it for that long, and I haven't been able to in large part due to the fact that I have to make a living. HCGE certainly hasn't been helping because I don't want to force hobby people to pay anything, and I haven't asked except for if hell freezes over and somebody decides to build a commercial game with it. To-date I've only gotten a very limited number of people who even tried to use it as a hobby, and each and every one of them have quit for one reason or another. Do you want like wide-screen and a million colors? Well I'm sorry, but it's going to have to take a backseat to core engine and editor functionality and features, because I don't want to be responsible for people churning out "pretty"-looking crap. I'm building a game engine, not a color playground. Help me or stop whining and wait until I'm allowed to get around to actually doing something like that; it's just that simple of a choice, and you do have the choice. Just make it and move on

$1 won't do shit, honestly. $64 won't really do shit, either. A few hundred $1's, though, that's getting somewhere. I'm aiming big, going full-time with what I want to do, how I want to do it. This is the exact opposite of developing under someone else and/or for money on deadlines or having to forsake wild ideas or complex implementation for what can almost be guaranteed to be well-functioning and actually done within the amount of time that is available to me; this is on my terms so that I can take however long it actually takes to do whatever actually needs to be done to make whatever it is that I'm doing the best that it can possibly be with me as developer, and that's exactly what I told people. They know this going in, and still I already have 10 patrons so far. If you check the full list, you'll find that they're not all "random nobodies", as well, and I resent being made to put it that way because these people are just plain awesome

I don't know what else can possibly be said. I don't care who hasn't read or doesn't read it; I'm not going to repeat myself. I can't be bothered to spend any more time on people who aren't put out in the least by any of this and can only stand to potentially benefit from it being ridiculous

I'm going to run this Patreon.
Megamix is going to be one of the projects that I spend any time developing while the Patreon is open.

There is nothing more to discuss regarding the subject, particularly given that this is supposed to be the new legitimate Sonic Megamix project thread that has little-to-nothing at all to do with the fact that there even exists a Patreon.

I guess I do have to thank those of you who participated in all of this, though. I didn't quite feel right before; now, this really does feel like an actual Sonic Megamix thread.

Fine, Ill give you all of that. But if Megamix wasn't for a money grab, then WHY EVEN PUT IT ON YOUR PATREON PAGE?! If its truly just for fun, leave it at that. Don't try to milk this community for money. Why even link it?

[Stealth]

Neo, on Today, 03:52 PM, said:

Billy, on Today, 10:33 AM, said:

Stealth has given so much to this community over many years, all for free.

Reminder that the original SonED was paid software

Reminder that I made the damned thing free for everyone a notable amount of time before I ever even thought of creating SonED2, and I did ask all of the people who were nice enough to put down a one-time payment after I cut the price in half if it was ok with them if I made it free

Nevermind that I was working fluctuating part-time hours for minimum wage and living in an expensive apartment that I was under threat of losing at the time, and by the way, I did ultimately lose it for that exact reason - not able to get enough money to keep up the rent, and that was after my wife (then just a friend) put up a full month's rent for me that she barely even really had. I told this to everyone too; I told them that this, coupled with the existence of third-party shareware game editors I had already seen for other products, was exactly the reason that I thought it was worth asking for anything at all. Thanks so much, for the consideration, guys

People whine and bitch that I don't give them shit all throughout my history here, after my part in founding the place, providing some information, providing the projects that I have done for free and serving as inspiration (yes, I've been told specifically that I was the inspiration) for several other major projects that other people have created, and once I even try to give them something but someone leaks that I'm even working on it, and I get bitched at over the course of the next three or four years for "horading it" and not giving it up because the "community" "deserves it" or has some god-given right to force me to turn over anything I ever do immediately. In all that time, I lost my apartment, tried to move to a better neighborhood and lost that house, having to move in with family, lost that and had to move back to a terrible neighborhood, and got all of my funds from working part-time, minimum wage food-service to prolong the lives of demanding and non-appreciative assholes. I still work on other projects, such as trying to pitch a freely-available E02 here along with a complete Sonic engine that anyone can use to make fan games with it, I try to work on Mega Man Triple Threat, I do what I can on Megamix when I can actually do it, I've still dedicated time to and released several updates to SonED and SonED2 for free

But yeah, fuck me for ever getting any one-time payments of $15 for a software program that I developed by myself with a lot of information I discovered by myself in my spare time when I was barely making a living. I'm horrible

Hez, on Today, 04:00 PM, said:

Fine, Ill give you all of that. But if Megamix wasn't for a money grab, then WHY EVEN PUT IT ON YOUR PATREON PAGE?! If its truly just for fun, leave it at that. Don't try to milk this community for money. Why even link it?

It's called "disclosure". If nothing else had changed about you except that you decided to put money in because of HCGE, then I'm sure you and others would be bitching the moment something happened regarding Sonic Megamix because what the fuck am I doing spending my time on that when I'm getting paid money for other stuff I said I was doing

Though I won't lie, I knew some people would want to put in for it, and that's their choice. I'm not "milking" anybody. Nobody has to pay me a goddamned cent for Sonic Megamix; nowhere have I said that they did, and entirely to the contrary, I've been explicitly saying that they don't

[KingofHarts]

Atendega, on Yesterday, 05:35 PM, said:

I'm downright confused as to why people are complaining about having the OPTION to donate to what we all know is a good cause.

[Aerosol]

Stay confused I guess? The grievances have been pretty clearly aired out.

Also, for what it's worth, I did read the Patreon page.

[Stealth]

Stealth, on Today, 03:55 PM, said:

It's a pretty pointless argument anyway since I'm not going to take it down or anything, or even change my mind about what I'm doing first. I'm going to leave it up, I'm going to mention it when I feel like it, and I'm going to start by pleasing the people who wanted to help who happen to be Sonic fans by working on "Sonic 1 Megamix" as I promised as a direct response to their generocity

The only other real option would be to remove any mention of Megamix whatsoever from the patreon entirely, and if it becomes my primary income, never, ever work on Megamix again because I may as well have explicitly said that the projects listed in detail on the page are the only ones I'm ever going to work on and I'd otherwise be lying to the people kind enough to fund me. Is that preferable?

[KingofHarts]

Aerosol, on Today, 04:28 PM, said:

The grievances have been pretty clearly aired out.

The grievances are clear... That's not where the confusion lies. I... along with MANY others... are confused as to why they exist in the first place.

I can think of a ton of free projects, be it gaming related or otherwise, that take fan donations, etc. One example is a podcast I listen to... the guy has done his show for 8 years... and people, myself included, have asked how to help support the show. He has a small PayPal donate box to the side of his site, along with a merch store. There is nothing dirty or wrong with OPTIONAL fan support... read optional. Now... if you want dirty... HERE is something dirty. This is a quote I heard a little while back...

"Philanthropy is the future of marketing."

[Felik]

Wow, people just leave Stealth alone if you don't support his beginnings.
It clearly is the gray area so I really don't know what the single most right stance on the situation.
What I do know however is that Stealth is one of the most contributive and prominent members of the Sonic community (Retro specifically) so if you don't support him in this uncertain activity then at least don't spite him.
It would really be a huge loss if he gave up on this community.

[Hez]

Stealth, on Today, 04:38 PM, said:

Stealth, on Today, 03:55 PM, said:

It's a pretty pointless argument anyway since I'm not going to take it down or anything, or even change my mind about what I'm doing first. I'm going to leave it up, I'm going to mention it when I feel like it, and I'm going to start by pleasing the people who wanted to help who happen to be Sonic fans by working on "Sonic 1 Megamix" as I promised as a direct response to their generocity

The only other real option would be to remove any mention of Megamix whatsoever from the patreon entirely, and if it becomes my primary income, never, ever work on Megamix again because I may as well have explicitly said that the projects listed in detail on the page are the only ones I'm ever going to work on and I'd otherwise be lying to the people kind enough to fund me. Is that preferable?

Its basically why I even brought it up. Nobody should ever pay for Megamix, or any other fan-game for that matter. You basically admit to putting Megamix there as an attention grabber, which I really think isn't necessarily wrong, but super sketchy to do to a community that for years has supported you.

Just be honest. I'd rather give you money and support you than you try and trick me into it.

Felik, on Today, 04:50 PM, said:

Wow, people just leave Stealth alone if you don't support his beginnings.
It clearly is the gray area so I really don't know what the single most right stance on the situation.
What I do know however is that Stealth is one of the most contributive and prominent members of the Sonic community (Retro specifically) so if you don't support him in this uncertain activity then at least don't spite him.
It would really be a huge loss if he gave up on this community.

You forget how many others there are nowadays.

This post has been edited by Hez: Today, 05:01 PM

[Stealth]

Hez, on Today, 05:02 PM, said:

Just be honest. I'd rather give you money and support you than you try and trick me into it.

I am being honest.

Stealth, on Today, 04:18 PM, said:

Though I won't lie, I knew some people would want to put in for it

It's something I'm well-known for anyway, and with me admitting that I know some people would want to donate to it, obviously it's impossible for bias not to get involved with my motives. If you admit that I've already admitted that it's an attention-grabber, then what am I being dishonest about?

Hez, on Today, 05:02 PM, said:

a community that for years has supported you.

Am I allowed to laugh at this? You want to tell me about support in the middle of this mess? In my relative crisis back in the late 90s, only 10 people bought SonED. If I say anything that even comes close to hinting at the possibility of money being anywhere within a hundred mile radius of myself, there are people who go apeshit every time. There's always somebody telling me I owe them sourcecodes, there's always people telling me I owe them updates and releases when there's nothing I can update/release that they won't turn around and bitch at me for, there are people who have demanded access to things they shouldn't have even known about yet and bitching and whining based on assumptions about what I would or wouldn't do with it. Now I get picked to death over mentioning Megamix anywhere near a Patreon that it's not necessarily a significant part of?

A comment like this made in the context that it was is particularly telling:

Hez, on 22 July 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

why is there always a money thing involved?

In what way are you "supporting" me, exactly? You're not even actually providing me with "moral support" at the moment by going out of your way trying to rip this to shreds when it really can't have any effect on you whatsoever if you don't want it to, and unnecessarily adding basically how unnecessary/redundant I am. You don't have to praise me like a god or anything, or tell me I'm better than anyone or any thing that I'm not, but this? Yeah, I feel supported

As for real moral support, I truly do appreciate it. Everyone who's ever cheered me on, wished me well, or come to my defense over something (Ex: this), it's great. But don't dare tell me that a few pats on my back demand that I dedicate myself fully 24/7 to everyone in the "community". I owe some people kindness. Some people. I owe very few people anything more than that, and hardly any of those people post anything on or even read this forum

In response to defending my right to handle my own material in whatever way I want, I was once told explicitly that I'm obligated to "pay it forward". Ok. What am I afforded that warrants such an obligation on a persistent basis, and where is it?

Don't pay me money, fine; I didn't go to your house, get in your face, and demand specifically that you give me money, and if you don't, that's fine with me
Just don't tell me I fucking owe you anything

[KingofHarts]

Hez, on Today, 05:02 PM, said:

Just be honest. I'd rather give you money and support you than you try and trick me into it.

That's it. I can't take this argument seriously anymore. I tap out... I'm done. I'll still come around for the hacking contest but I think I'm going to step away from Retro for a little while. The last couple days on here have done nothing but pissed me off.