[Hez]

Stealth, on 22 July 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

Green Snake, on 22 July 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

and many people I hear say nowadays its more overrated than anything

This part, in particular, was a bit rude to add to my thread, given that I (or anybody else currently in Team Megamix) never said that it was the best thing ever, isn't it? :P

I don't think anybody will be all that impressed with "Sonic 1 Megamix" anymore if they're not trying to be. All the good stuff is in "Sonic Megamix", but I don't really even care who's done what; I'm just trying to make a game. People can like or dislike it however they want

Hez, on 22 July 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

I unfortunately agree. I mean its a fun game, don't get me wrong, but I've had just as much fun, if not more, with other hacks and fan-games.

See previous paragraph (immediate, not both) :P

Felik, on 22 July 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Well when people found out about Nitemare's (Sonic XG) patreon they were furious.

Not sure how that's my problem any more than what jman responded to... I don't recall leading people's hate on it (in fact, I didn't know it even existed) :P

Hez, on 22 July 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

I also do mean this with NO disrespect, but why is there always a money thing involved? There are PLENTY of other great hacks and fan-games being made that ask for no money and deliver so much more. I would LOVE to get donations to make Sonic Classic 2, but I don't ask because I have a job that takes care of that. That job also keeps me from working on it as much as I'd like. Just a question I'd like to bring up.

I actually only recall ever having brought this up once ("I can't do this all the time because it doesn't make me money", which is just plain true; stuff gets in the way), unless you count the time that I responded to an article about somebody running coin-op Megamix in an arcade by saying something like "If anybody deserves to make money off the game, it's the people who made it", with a definite inclusion of the "if" part

As for my Patreon, it's for all of my projects. Other people do stuff without starting a patreon campaign, sure, but I'm not those people so I'm not necessarily in their situation, whatever it is. I have a lot of stuff to do that's not really getting done, and there are other people besides me that want some of it done. If you were to read my Patreon page, you'd see that my primary project is HCGE, with some commercial games, and some other stuff I'd like to do as sort of disclosure on what else is going on so I can still do other fun things and maybe not get yelled at. Working other jobs, I never have the kind of time I need to be able to put the most into any of these projects, so they just get poked at and I have to consider what's less time-consuming and more immediately-beneficial to do (Ex: Do you recall Megamix/HCGE/etc making any progress during the time I was on contract for Sonic 1 and Sonic 2? You don't normally get to have notable side-work in that kind of profession; not to mention that I spent like over four months pissing off just trying to be totally available because I was anticipating the contract signing, which took forever)

All I'm doing is asking people who care that much if they want to help me get more things done. People can donate because they want to see HCGE go forward, they can donate because they like my fan stuff; I like doing and am going to do both, ultimately. Technically nobody has to pay anything; if I get enough people to sustain me, everybody who doesn't want to contribute can just sit back and wait for the good stuff to roll in at someone else's expense. If the Patreon isn't successful enough, though, everybody will just have to wait (maybe a lot) longer just because I have to survive. If I (and my team, for that matter) were unrestricted by other obligations, Megamix might be finished now. HCGE might be super-badass already, who knows what else. I just do have those obligations, and that's life. There are people who are getting impatient and people who are just disappointed; I'm giving them another option. Not twisting their arm or anything, but it's there. You decide not to contribute, you have that option, and if others pick up the slack, you won't even "suffer" for it because this is all about my availability. Sonic Megamix is free, Mega Man Triple Threat is free, HCGE is free if your game isn't commercial. For the work I'd be putting in even if I wasn't supported full-time by Patreon, I'd say that's pretty generous... In fact, the work I'm doing right now is more for goodwill than anything since even if my patrons had been charged already (which they haven't), I'd only have gotten $64, which isn't enough to justify spending all day every day on this stuff indefinitely; what's left of my reserve won't last forever

Regarding Sonic (1) Megamix, in specific, all of my current patrons are Sonic fans, and that's probably really only because that's where I really have any exposure to speak of. People have responded to word of my Patreon campaign by asking about Megamix, some adding that its guaranteed completion is the only condition under which they'd even consider contributing. This is why I've decided to lead off with work on Megamix; I'm giving the people who took the initiative and willingly volunteered tangible assets what they want. Not sure what's wrong with that... :/

I admit I didn't read the full thread, I just saw the part of 360 adding something about $30 dollars. With your current statement, I couldn't agree more as I have a LOT of prior engagements, mostly my job, and usually the community is last on my list (sorry guys). So I owe an apology there.

I just want the hacking/fangaming community to remain free and fun. When money gets involved, its no fun anymore and it becomes a business.

[MotorRoach]

...what.

It becomes a business if someone is outright demanding that you give them your money if you want to play their game. Asking for donations is a completely different story, and is entirely optional.

Keep in mind that while people choose to work on Sonic hacks/fan games are entirely by free will, it doesn't means people are always able to work at them, and some times said people really want to keep doing that. Finances are an essential thing in pretty much living, and there are people who need help with their financial situation, because some of them literally get little free time at all. Asking for financial help from a fanbase is an understandable act, and is in no way something greedy to do. It's only a problem when people entirely limit their new content ONLY to those who donate, instead of treating it like something optional (like that guy named TomPreston).

In Stealth's case, he had always delivered great content to the community, and donating to him is the least people could do for all that he's done. He's certainly one of a kind for all of his coding knowledge, and I honestly think he deserves what he gains. Just because he does it out of free will, it doesn't means he's forced to work on content entirely for free just for our amusement.

Now, if you are going to tell me that that no one has the right to ask for financial help, and that helping someone out in their bills so they can deliver more content for everybody somehow ruins your "fun", then I seriously hope you never have fun again.

This post has been edited by MotorRoach: Yesterday, 04:44 PM

[Stealth]

Felik, on Yesterday, 01:10 AM, said:

Not sure why do you take my comment personally considering I wasn't even quoting your post. I was just bringing up a direct comparison, that's all.

It was a little unclear, but I get you. We're cool :)

Green Snake, on Yesterday, 03:47 AM, said:

I never intended to be rude exactly nor blame it on you or your team, but rather poke at the people who overhype particular works done by particular people when its not necessarily warranted.
[...]
And no, I don't want to start flamewars here exactly, so I hope I don't come off as if I was trying to

Kinda hard not to take it personally on some level, really. I get people overhype stuff... I try very hard not to do it myself, and I generally fought against it when I had less control over it. What looks like over-criticism in compensation for excess fan hype just sort of stings since it's not necessarily our fault at this point :P

No hard feelings, though :)

And just to be clear, I may end up promoting it a little more due to expectation created by leaning on Patreon, but I only hope that people are able to enjoy what I'm/we're able to pump out for what it is. Of course, we've set out to make a fun and exciting game; that's all

Hez, on Yesterday, 11:50 AM, said:

I admit I didn't read the full thread, I just saw the part of 360 adding something about $30 dollars. With your current statement, I couldn't agree more as I have a LOT of prior engagements, mostly my job, and usually the community is last on my list (sorry guys). So I owe an apology there.

I just want the hacking/fangaming community to remain free and fun. When money gets involved, its no fun anymore and it becomes a business.

The "business" feel is exactly the opposite of what I'm aiming for, though. I tried to make clear on the Patreon itself that this is about the freedom to try things and be creative, which is something I otherwise wouldn't have very much control over. It's about the removal of restrictions and deadlines; I want to be able to give things the time and attention that they really need and still get things done in a relatively reasonable period of time

I have commercial aspirations, I'll do some (original) commercial software, but I don't want to price it out of range, I don't want a paywall to bar people from making use of utilities like HCGE when they're just out for fun and not profit, and I want everybody to have access to my fan stuff. Whoever can help me do all of this helps the people who can't

[Caniad Bach]

The only bar I care about is one that sells decent gin. "Will it be good?" is the only question that needs to be answered, and since we've all already played Megamix, and it IS good, I think we can safely assume the answer to that is "Yes".

And the Patreon isn't paying for Megamix, it's paying for Stealth to be able to put the time towards multiple projects, which happen to include Megamix. As has been pointed out, if you don't want to contribute, you don't have to.

[Hez]

MotorRoach, on Yesterday, 04:42 PM, said:

...what.

It becomes a business if someone is outright demanding that you give them your money if you want to play their game. Asking for donations is a completely different story, and is entirely optional.

Keep in mind that while people choose to work on Sonic hacks/fan games are entirely by free will, it doesn't means people are always able to work at them, and some times said people really want to keep doing that. Finances are an essential thing in pretty much living, and there are people who need help with their financial situation, because some of them literally get little free time at all. Asking for financial help from a fanbase is an understandable act, and is in no way something greedy to do. It's only a problem when people entirely limit their new content ONLY to those who donate, instead of treating it like something optional (like that guy named TomPreston).

In Stealth's case, he had always delivered great content to the community, and donating to him is the least people could do for all that he's done. He's certainly one of a kind for all of his coding knowledge, and I honestly think he deserves what he gains. Just because he does it out of free will, it doesn't means he's forced to work on content entirely for free just for our amusement.

Now, if you are going to tell me that that no one has the right to ask for financial help, and that helping someone out in their bills so they can deliver more content for everybody somehow ruins your "fun", then I seriously hope you never have fun again.

While I agree with you on trying to get some money while you're in financial problems, I don't think its right to exploit your fan-creations because you're having hard times. That's what second jobs are for (I'm saying it here before you guys do, this stuff IS NOT a second job, its fandom).

MotorRoach, on Yesterday, 04:42 PM, said:

donating to him is the least people could do for all that he's done.

This is where its just plain stupid. You're putting a single person on a pedestal and acting like he deserves our money at demand. Where's Saxmans cut for all his breakthroughs in music editing? Why aren't we paying for Sonic Classic Heroes? What exactly does one do to get to that point where the community owes him?

Bottom line is, nobody owes him, nor anybody else, ANYTHING. I will stick to my opinion that it's in bad taste to ask for money for anything. Its not wrong, its just dirty and, in my opinion, bad for the community.

[MotorRoach]

Yeah, how DARE we donate to him out of free will? That's such a stupid thing to do! We don't owe him anything! He should continue to give us free content for free!

You're really saying that just making Sonic Classic Heroes is the same thing as everything that Stealth has done before. Like, wow, the way you put it like, you sound against the very concept of donations to begin with.

I'm not putting him on a pedestal and I'm not saying you should pay for his work. I'm saying that I respect the guy for what he's done and since everyone literally needs money to stay alive and/or not have a horrible time, he might as well promote himself using his creations. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is no way dirty, just because money is accepted (but not demanded), specially since he's not even tricking anyone into doing so.

Besides, no one is going bankrupt just for giving him a spare buck every now and then, nor this is going to ruin the reputation of the community. Groups like artists do this very often, given that not everyone can simply get a second job so easily-- this goes specially to the people who WANT to keep delivering frequent content to their audience. He's not different from said people, and I for one hope I can reach a higher level of interest with my art, so I can do the same thing (finances have been a real struggle for me these days).

If you're so concerned about it having to do with Sonic fan games, keep in mind that this isn't JUST for his Sonic content. He made it clear that he also has non-Sonic content he wants to work on.

This post has been edited by MotorRoach: Yesterday, 05:24 PM

[Stealth]

Hez, on Yesterday, 04:56 PM, said:

You're putting a single person on a pedestal and acting like he deserves our money at demand.

I'd just like to respond to this part in particular by pointing out that I never demanded anything. I provided an option that you're entirely free to ignore (In addition, in the past, people have asked myself and others how to donate, unprovoked)

Hez, on Yesterday, 04:56 PM, said:

Its not wrong, its just dirty and, in my opinion, bad for the community.

May I be bold enough to ask how, for a single example, delaying Megamix for another 11 years is, by comparison, "good for the community"? Just don't pay anything and play it when it comes out... If other people want to donate of their own free will and generocity, that might happen sooner without you having to do a thing, not because I'm withholding anything but just because I'll actually be able to make myself available to do my part in making it so. What's to complain about?

[Atendega]

I'm downright confused as to why people are complaining about having the OPTION to donate to what we all know is a good cause.

[MotorRoach]

Atendega, on Yesterday, 05:35 PM, said:

I'm downright confused as to why Hez is complaining about having the OPTION to donate to what we all know is a good cause.

Fixed it for you. Literally no one else is complaining.

[Stealth]

MotorRoach, on Yesterday, 06:02 PM, said:

Fixed it for you. Literally no one else is complaining.

Not actually true, they're just not doing it here :P

[LordOfSquad]

I'd like to interject and ask what hacks exactly people are talking about when they say Megamix has been surpassed, I haven't seen anything even close to it's scope.

[Aerosol]

As far as I can tell, Hez isn't complaining per se. He's wondering how donating grants more spare time. At least, that's the way I see it. I have a day job and a productive hobby and, unless donations are granting me a steady income I can live off of, they're not giving me any more time to work on my hobby. Incentive, sure, but not time. Not exactly.

All I'm saying is that it's not as cut and dry as a lot of you seem to think it is. These waters are murky. Taking donation money for fan work is diving into murky waters. That's why a lot of people that do create fan works outright refuse all donations and do not make the process easily available. Some only take money for a specific work (like art commissions). And even then I think the legality of that is still muddled with shades of grey.

We can all agree that one should be able to be rewarded for their efforts but when it comes to fangames and things like that I don't think it's so simple to say "that reward should be money". You have to tread carefully with this type of thing, and I think maybe setting up a Patreon is a little heavy-footed.

This post has been edited by Aerosol: Today, 03:04 AM

[MotorRoach]

See, that would be a problem if Stealth was limiting his Patreon for Megamix and Sonic in general. The thing is that, as it was mentioned, it's not JUST for Megamix, but Stealth also got like five projects going on-- that being said, he isn't solely making money of a hack, yet the donations help him focus on it more.

Also, I have no idea what Stealth's financial situation is like, but getting a handful of donations is not to be seen as a main way of income (unless you have a huge fanbase that donates to you)-- however, a fine amount every now and then can help you save up to the point of not needing to get a second job, depending on how tight your situation might be. Depending on the person, it indeed helps them getting some more free time, and that might as well be Stealth's case.

And at last, I recall seeing quite the fan artists who set up their own Patreon pages, or at least where there was fan art involved. It wasn't so much of a "hey pay me to see my Sonic art", it was more of a "hey give me a spare buck so you can get early progress shots of this cool pokemon art and have the chance of getting free requests". If it was the former, that would be considerably making profit out of fan content-- as in, outright selling your fan art.

While we're still on that subject... well... I DO take art commissions very frequently (nearly everyday), and said commissions often involve fan content. I can guarantee that it isn't as much of a problem as it might sound to be, given that you're not really selling any company's copyrighted work as your own. You're more like being paid to do something that someone wants you to make, basically "oh hey, I got you fifteen bucks. Can you sketch my fav character?", and there's definitely nothing wrong with that. It's only a problem if you try to sell said commissions... but well, even then, it depends on how it's made.

This post has been edited by MotorRoach: Today, 07:24 AM

[Aerosol]

All I'm saying is that taking donations (ostensibly so that you can have more free time) isn't as cut and dry as many seem to think it is. If it were, a lot more people would be doing it without reservations. I don't care about what people want to spend their money on.

This post has been edited by Aerosol: Today, 09:00 AM

[Hez]

Stealth, on Yesterday, 05:12 PM, said:

Hez, on Yesterday, 04:56 PM, said:

You're putting a single person on a pedestal and acting like he deserves our money at demand.

I'd just like to respond to this part in particular by pointing out that I never demanded anything. I provided an option that you're entirely free to ignore (In addition, in the past, people have asked myself and others how to donate, unprovoked)

Hez, on Yesterday, 04:56 PM, said:

Its not wrong, its just dirty and, in my opinion, bad for the community.

May I be bold enough to ask how, for a single example, delaying Megamix for another 11 years is, by comparison, "good for the community"? Just don't pay anything and play it when it comes out... If other people want to donate of their own free will and generocity, that might happen sooner without you having to do a thing, not because I'm withholding anything but just because I'll actually be able to make myself available to do my part in making it so. What's to complain about?

You didn't demand anything, you're implying it. You and MotorRoach are proving my points entirely. You're hustling people for money. Which in defenition, "obtain by forceful action or persuasion.". And I'll give you this, you are VERY good at persuasion.

" delaying Megamix for another 11 years"
Oh no, I better donate money so I can get megamix off that pedestal sooner!

And yes, I think delaying Megamix for another 11 years is bad. I think delaying ANY hack or fan-game is bad. NOT just Megamix. If its not all about the money, why don't we just set up a community pot and EVERYBODY gets to dip into it when they're in financial crisis? I know I'd love a few dollars for Sonic Classic 2. Saxman would love some dough for his Sonic Boom engine. Hell, lets throw some money towards some of the Sonic Generation mods.

MotorRoach, on Yesterday, 05:12 PM, said:

You're really saying that just making Sonic Classic Heroes is the same thing as everything that Stealth has done before. Like, wow, the way you put it like, you sound against the very concept of donations to begin with.

No, you're missing the point entirely. I don't think its the same as Stealth as done on the level you're thinking. On the other hand, I don't think his contributions deserve money over somebody elses contributions. If you're going to say things like "Well if it wasn't for sonicED those hacks wouldn't exist so he DESERVES money" then we'd also have to give Nemesis, Saxman, Esrael, and MANY others for there contributions to the hacking community. Hell, those people may have done so much more with donations if they had the nerve to ask. Again, my OPINION is that it's in bad taste.

A community like this thrives on the contributions of all of it's members. You start throwing money into the mix and you start losing that sense of community. Nothing makes people stop helping each other out like the prospect of making a buck.