[Mr Lange]

DigitalDuck, on 07 July 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

TheInvisibleSun, on 07 July 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

Sonic has no momentum in his physical movement at all

Not true - the problem is friction/air friction is too high, and outside of scripted objects, when you're not holding a direction it slows you down too quickly (much more quickly than the classic Sonic games).

Not just higher friction. Almost everything is stop and go. The semblance of momentum on the ground while moving is noticeably hackish and the fakery can be felt with every awkward lurch Sonic makes. Outside of that, Sonic controls like a car in an indecisive traffic jam.
How a spindash works in Sonic 3&K (no directional input): http://I.gyazo.com/d...750f8e814f9.mp4
How a spindash works in Sonic 4 (no directional input): http://I.gyazo.com/6...3c000f5d506.mp4

[Meat Miracle]

"Sega Learned About Making Quality Games From Atlus"

This has got to be the stupidest quote a company ever said in the history of gaming. Beyond Atari Jaguar levels of stupid. Beyond Historical Japanese Battles against Giant Enemy Crabs stupid.

holy fuck.

[DigitalDuck]

Mr Lange, on 07 July 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

Not just higher friction. Almost everything is stop and go. The semblance of momentum on the ground while moving is noticeably hackish and the fakery can be felt with every awkward lurch Sonic makes. Outside of that, Sonic controls like a car in an indecisive traffic jam.
How a spindash works in Sonic 3&K (no directional input): http://I.gyazo.com/d...750f8e814f9.mp4
How a spindash works in Sonic 4 (no directional input): http://I.gyazo.com/6...3c000f5d506.mp4

- says it's not just higher friction.
- shows videos showing only higher friction.

I never claimed it was "just" higher friction; I said there is momentum. If momentum didn't exist, you would not move at all when you let go of down after charging a spindash. But as it turns out, you do. You move right, and not just for a single frame, but for many, and your speed decreases over a number of frames.

Your speed decreases much more rapidly in Sonic 4 than it does in Sonic 3, though. This is because of increased friction.

(Also, I don't generally let go of the controller when I play Sonic games.)

[TheInvisibleSun]

DigitalDuck, on 07 July 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

Mr Lange, on 07 July 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

Not just higher friction. Almost everything is stop and go. The semblance of momentum on the ground while moving is noticeably hackish and the fakery can be felt with every awkward lurch Sonic makes. Outside of that, Sonic controls like a car in an indecisive traffic jam.
How a spindash works in Sonic 3&K (no directional input): http://I.gyazo.com/d...750f8e814f9.mp4
How a spindash works in Sonic 4 (no directional input): http://I.gyazo.com/6...3c000f5d506.mp4

- says it's not just higher friction.
- shows videos showing only higher friction.

I never claimed it was "just" higher friction; I said there is momentum. If momentum didn't exist, you would not move at all when you let go of down after charging a spindash. But as it turns out, you do. You move right, and not just for a single frame, but for many, and your speed decreases over a number of frames.

Your speed decreases much more rapidly in Sonic 4 than it does in Sonic 3, though. This is because of increased friction.

(Also, I don't generally let go of the controller when I play Sonic games.)

I had a feeling someone would mention that. A term like 'Increased Friction' is just a matter of semantics, when the result is the same. I'm not talking about letting go of the controller, I'm talking about letting go of forward on the D-Pad. In Sonic 1-3K, Sonic rolls downhill faster than he can run (especially in the case of Sonic 1, with it's ground speed cap and all). If Sonic approaches a slope while running what is the best course of action from a gameplay standpoint? Keep on running, while vulnerable to enemy collision and moving at a less than optimal speed? Or simply remove your finger from right, and press down to roll, gather speed, and become a speeding ball of destruction?

This post has been edited by TheInvisibleSun: 08 July 2015 - 06:35 AM

[TimmiT]

Meat Miracle, on 07 July 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

"Sega Learned About Making Quality Games From Atlus"

This has got to be the stupidest quote a company ever said in the history of gaming. Beyond Atari Jaguar levels of stupid. Beyond Historical Japanese Battles against Giant Enemy Crabs stupid.

holy fuck.

Weirdly enough the article itself doesn't line up with that headline. Specifically, SEGA has learned about the western market from Atlus. Which makes sense considering that Atlus is doing a much better job when it comes to localizing their games.

Yeow, on 07 July 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

"Sega is doubling down on quality!

Sega is releasing a Sonic game that has the quality of the originals!

Sega is removing low-scoring games from retail shelves and digital stores in an initiative to boost quality!"

We've all seen and heard this same song and dance before.

Missed this post, and uh... they kinda did improve Sonic games when they said that. It was around the time of Unleashed, and while people are mixed on that game, you can at least tell that the developers tried. But then after that we got Colours, Generations and the All-Stars Racing games. It wasn't until Lost World that quality began to go down again.

This post has been edited by TimmiT: 07 July 2015 - 09:33 PM

[.Luke]

If Sonic Team really is going to get actual time to finish, refine, and play-test a Sonic game for once, we might get another Unleashed to bring things back up again. The potential for huge, fast levels, with tons of gorgeous scenery, on the PS4/XBOX One is too good of an opportunity to miss.

TimmiT, on 07 July 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Really the main thing to take away from this is that SEGA might try to localize games more like how Atlus is doing it. And if you're not familiar with them: Atlus does English localizations of every Japanese game they make, but only puts out a limited supply. So people in the US who would want to buy these games are still be able to get them.

And you can tell that SEGA's kinda been going in this direction. While the Yakuza 5 localization seems to be something Sony pushed them to do, they've also been releasing Miku games here and are localizing Dengeki Bunko: Fighting Climax of all games.

Also, let's be fair here. Aside from Sonic stuff, SEGA hasn't been doing too bad when it comes to the quality of the games they put out. Alien Isolation, the Hatsune Miku games, Puyo Puyo Tetris, Yakuza Zero, the Total War games etc.. The problem seems to be more with lack of interest or the games not being localized.

Speaking of which, you all better play those Yakuza games. I mean, you get to punch a tiger in the face in the second one

That's a nice reminder, TimmiT. After the recent wave of bad Mobile Sonic games, I forgot SEGA has generally been great in other areas; seriously want those Miku games when I have the PlayStation hardware to play them.

Also, there would have to be a Yazuka demo or two on the PSN before I'd consider those games. While they sound over the top, I'd want to know what I'm getting into before going on Ebay like "OMG I MUST BUY THIS TONIGHT".

[superevil]

Sonic Generations was really good. As long as producing quality titles means producing more of the Sonic Generations quality, I'll be a happy camper.

[TimmiT]

.Luke, on 07 July 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

Also, there would have to be a Yazuka demo or two on the PSN before I'd consider those games. While they sound over the top, I'd want to know what I'm getting into before going on Ebay like "OMG I MUST BUY THIS TONIGHT".

I'm pretty sure that there's a demo of Yakuza 4 at least. Unless SEGA removed it or something.

[DigitalDuck]

TheInvisibleSun, on 07 July 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

I had a feeling someone would mention that. A term like 'Increased Friction' is just a matter of semantics, when the result is the same.

It's really not - there is a massive difference between having no momentum whatsoever (technically we're talking about inertia, but whatever), and merely slowing down too quickly due to friction.

The original Rayman had no momentum whatsoever (barring the weird ice physics). It works for Rayman, but wouldn't for Sonic. When you press right, you move right at Rayman's walking speed, instantly. When you let go of right, you stop moving, instantly. There's no acceleration or friction involved whatsoever. That is what it means to not have momentum, and the result is very different.

Mario, on the other hand, has always had a high friction value, especially in the 3D games where it's higher than Sonic 4's. Let go of the controller while running in Mario Galaxy and watch how quickly you stop. Run off a ledge and watch what happens. You don't immediately stop - you quickly stop. Play as Luigi and see what happens with lower friction.

The difference between "no momentum whatosever" and "higher friction value" is enormous when it comes to the way the game feels. If Sonic 4 had used the Rayman model you would see it getting even more hate than it currently gets.


As for the rest of it, I'm not disagreeing that S1-3K are much better. But when you see the average Joe play a Sonic game, they often don't roll down hills. They often hold right and run into everything, smashing it up afterwards. To these people, the physics changes aren't even noticeable, because they're pressing in the direction they want to move.

[JohnBoyAdvance]

I want to believe.

But this has to be more than half decent Sonic game, Shenmue 1 and 2 HD and another decent Sega based racing game. Which I really think this is all they are going to do.

Make Game Sega. Make Game Please.

[redhotsonic]

I want to believe, but until I see something that makes me go "wow", I won't. Saying that though, it's Sonic's 25th birthday next year. That will be a perfect time for SEGA to listen to their old fans and gain back their trust and bring out a Sonic game that is actually worth paying for. Sonic Generations is the only decent Sonic game since the Megadrive era (IMO), so Sonic Generations 2 would be nice but I don't see them doing that within a year (unless they've already started and are surprising us). But I mean, even a small 2.5D Sonic game that gives us the retro vibe would be good. A 10x better Sonic 4 game is what I would like to see. But they must listen to what we actually want and take their time perfecting it.

Either that, or give Sonic games a rest for a little while and concentrate on other titles. Another terrible Sonic game that comes out, and I will have lost all hope and faith.

[Yeow]

Ezequiel.M, on 07 July 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Quote

You're using "retro themed" veeeery loosely. It didn't resemble the classic games beyond the most superficial way possible, and even that much was warped. It's almost like it was actively trying to mock what the original games were like. With horribly butchered gameplay, some of the most godawful music in the entire series that's some pitiful tacky "attempt" to sound "retro", cheap art style, lackluster mess of a story, and blatant rehashes of past stages with bad level design, it was essentially one big fuck you to fans of the classic games. Sonic 4 had tremendous shoes to fill, and not only did not come anywhere close to filling those shoes, it took a big shit in them and bounced up down smearing shit all over, set them on fire and left them on the fans' doorstep. Sonic 4 is part of Sega's big fuck ups. There's nothing about Sonic 4 that isn't a horrid disgrace and a massive insult to any respecting fan of the classics.

That's what I would call asserting an opinion as a fact, sorry, but respectfully, I don't agree with you, not at all.

On the topic of gameplay and rehashes, it really isn't an opinion. Gameplay at a glance level seems to "back to basics" but when you go beyond that its hardly anything like the classic games. Rolling and spindashing is gimped beyond belief. Bouncing amounts to jack. Sonic moves like a tank and can come to a stop on a dime (which was halfway fixed in Episode II-I say halfway as while Sonic was somewhat fixed, Super Sonic wasn't). There is little organic surface physics, with several scripted elements and automation papering up the cracks. You aren't going to get far in either episode if you try playing it like the legacy games. You're better off spamming the homing attack and using the (sometimes) forced combo moves for almost every action.

And this is by no means an opinion. Iizuka explicitly stated for Episode I that "we have not done a straight port of the gameplay, but rather updated it with actions which could not be done in the previous titles." Yet you can't call it a update, because the differences between the legacy physics and Sonic 4's physics are that stark. If the legacy physics were actually preserved in Sonic 4, I challenge that the vitriol leveled against this game would be half as strong at its best.

As for rehashes, you really don't think the game wasn't outright ripping content from the original games? Within 5 seconds of seeing Sonic 4 Episode I's zones, anyone could chant "Green Hill, Metropolis, Labyrinth, Casino Night, (Sonic 2) Death Egg." It's not just that they have a lot of similarities, they are obviously, deliberately copying the zones first, and shaping second. The direction wasn't to rekindle nostalgia as a celebration, it was to lean on the old memories as a dependency. Anyone could pick the old Sonic levels these were miming in 5 seconds. Splash Hill isn't confused with Emerald Hill, Angel Island, Mushroom Hill or Palmtree Panic... not at all. It's a Green Hill 2010, and the other zones are just as much no-brainers. Episode II was better with the first few zones, but not by much (Sky (Chase, Wing) Fortress and Death Egg...mk II).

TimmiT, on 07 July 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Missed this post, and uh... they kinda did improve Sonic games when they said that. It was around the time of Unleashed, and while people are mixed on that game, you can at least tell that the developers tried. But then after that we got Colours, Generations and the All-Stars Racing games. It wasn't until Lost World that quality began to go down again.

That's specifically what I'm getting at with that quote. There shouldn't need to be another re-assurance of quality, and the quality shouldn't have had "go down again" in the first place. The fact that Sega had a slew of good Sonic titles preceding it and making it seem they finally got a grasp on things just makes the whole thing that disappointing.

And even if Lost World is technically Sonic Team's only game since then, it is most certainly not going to wipe out the association of the notorious Boom games with the main series. I really don't think it is stated enough just how much of a mismanagement fuckup -concerning all sides involved- that was the entire project that was Boom: Rise of Lyric.

EDIT:

DigitalDuck, on 07 July 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

Yeow, on 07 July 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Speaking of which, its also been almost 15 years since the last Sonic Adventure. God, that game must had been horrible, we haven't gotten any game like it since then.

Speaking of which, it's also been almost 15 years since the last Shenmue. Thank fuck they're never trying that one again, huh?

If something happens to this game that causes it to get cancelled, I promise you I will address you as NostradamusDuck for weeks.

This post has been edited by Yeow: 09 July 2015 - 05:26 PM

[Black Squirrel]

redhotsonic, on 08 July 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Saying that though, it's Sonic's 25th birthday next year.

There's been special commemorative celebrations for Sonic's 10th, 15th and 20th birthday - literally nothing has happened to Sonic in the last five years that's worth celebrating.

A "hey isn't our franchise great" message from Sega doesn't hold much water, given that the franchise hasn't done anything great in years.

[TimmiT]

Black Squirrel, on 08 July 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

redhotsonic, on 08 July 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Saying that though, it's Sonic's 25th birthday next year.

There's been special commemorative celebrations for Sonic's 10th, 15th and 20th birthday - literally nothing has happened to Sonic in the last five years that's worth celebrating.

A "hey isn't our franchise great" message from Sega doesn't hold much water, given that the franchise hasn't done anything great in years.

Ten years of almost nothing worth celebrating didn't stop Sonic Generations from happening.

Sonic Team is working on a game, and I expect for reasons that it'll be released next year. Even if it's not an anniversary game, I'm sure that it'd be branded with a Sonic 25th anniversary logo or something just like with Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic 2006.

[360]

TimmiT, on 08 July 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Sonic Team is working on a game, and I expect for reasons that it'll be released next year. Even if it's not an anniversary game, I'm sure that it'd be branded with a Sonic 25th anniversary logo or something just like with Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic 2006.

This. We're getting the Sonic Team developed game they've been working on for like forever next year without a shadow of a doubt. After the amazing Sonic Generations powered anniversary last time I have high hopes for their next game. Comments from Sega like this make me hopeful the game will be of supreme quality. Even if talk is cheap without compelling evidence at least internally they're actively recognising they need to be more stern and patient with quality control. Hopefully this internal change will have an immediate effect on the next Sonic game. The development period for the game is unusually lengthened and I'm hoping that means the game will be amazing.

As Aaron said they'll start talking about their anniversary plans next year so that should be when the game is announced. I remain optimistic and hopeful.

This post has been edited by 360: 08 July 2015 - 02:21 PM