[Clownacy]

Dark Sonic, on 14 June 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Also In S3K, the background of Launch Base zone is a bunch of sphynx, but instead of the next level being Sandopolis we get Mushroom Hill.

The same could be said for EHZ. Towards the end, you can see HTZ in the background.

[big smile]

Pengi, on 14 June 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Seeing as Sonic Advance was released shortly after Sonic Adventure 2, and its final stage was the moon, it could be inferred that Super Sonic used the Chaos Emeralds to fix it up.

I used to think this, but Iizukia confirmed the moon was never fixed. We just see the other side.

Clownacy, on 15 June 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Dark Sonic, on 14 June 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

Also In S3K, the background of Launch Base zone is a bunch of sphynx, but instead of the next level being Sandopolis we get Mushroom Hill.

The same could be said for EHZ. Towards the end, you can see HTZ in the background.

These aren't plot holes. Just because something can seen in the background, doesn't mean it's next to a place. I can see another town from my bedroom window, but it's not the town that's next to me.

[HP Zoner]

Felik, on 15 June 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

So basically your definition of a "good time travel movie" is "shit time travel movie but a descent movie overall"?
Why bring time travel up at all then?

Because unlike Sonic 2006, I can actually enjoy the writing in Back to the Future non-ironically. The characters in that movie are given a set of rules to work with, and that's exactly what they do. In Sonic 2006, there are no rules. Anyone can travel to any point in time whenever they want, yet they never use that to their convenience. That stands out more to me than scientific accuracy, which (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to have mistaken my argument for. That's not at all what I was talking about (and definitely not what they were going for in Back to the Future anyway).

I don't expect a fictional work to consider all the logical ramifications of something that isn't even possible in real life, theoretically or otherwise. After all, the authors establish the rules, not the audience. With that in mind, the audience is supposed to focus on what makes sense given those rules. If it's entertaining, well-written, and cohese, that's all I really need. I think you'll find these works become more enjoyable that way.

So to answer your question, I brought up the time travel subject because all of the characters are idiots in that game.

[DigitalDuck]

HP Zoner, on 15 June 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

Because unlike Sonic 2006, I can actually enjoy the writing in Back to the Future non-ironically. /> The characters in that movie are given a set of rules to work with, and that's exactly what they do.

My favourite part for pointing out some of the absurdities in Back to the Future is Marty's picture of his family. The family members fade away due to "ripple effect", but the photo doesn't. Even without any kids, his mother still decided to take a picture of a random spot in the forest.

That's not even close to any of the major problems the series has (apparently time travel can erase your entire existence, but it can't under any circumstances change your memory). The "rules" are unclear at best, and self-contradictory under scrutiny.

HP Zoner, on 15 June 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

In Sonic 2006, there are no rules. Anyone can travel to any point in time whenever they want, yet they never use that to their convenience.

That's not true at all. There are rules:

Rule 1: Time travel requires two Chaos Emeralds, and two hedgehogs capable of Chaos Control.

Forwards time travel isn't really time travel - you just disappear for a bit and then reappear. Eggman's machine transporting Team Sonic to the future does so under the power of one Chaos Emerald, but never backwards. Mephiles is an exception - but then he's Mephiles, one half of a pandimensional being; even so, he still never travels back in time without a Chaos Emerald.

Rule 2: There are three "convergence points" in Soleanna.

All time travel arrives at three place/time period combinations:
1. Soleanna laboratory, 1996.
2. Soleanna town square, 2006.
3. White Acropolis, 2206.

Time travel appears to be restricted to these areas and times; seemingly each time someone arrives from the future, the arrival point is pushed to a short time later.

Rule 3: Travelling to the past never changes the past (at least as far as non-omniscient beings are concerned).

That doesn't necessarily mean time is fixed - it could mean that time travel into the past changes the past and the future leading from that past, changing the history of the world and those performing the time travel, such that it appears to have always been the case. This is something known as "replacement", and when something works under replacement theory, it also works under both divergent universe theory and fixed time theory.

But at no point do the characters ever change any established events; to them, and everyone else bound by time, time is fixed.

HP Zoner, on 15 June 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

With that in mind, the audience is supposed to focus on what makes sense given those rules. If it's entertaining, well-written, and cohese, that's all I really need. I think you'll find these works become more enjoyable that way.

So to answer your question, I brought up the time travel subject because all of the characters are idiots in that game.

As I wrote before, the story does in fact focus on what makes sense given those rules. To summarise:

DigitalDuck, on 09 February 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

Sonic's story:
- Elise kidnapped
- Save Elise
- Elise kidnapped again
- Save Elise again
- Get sent forward in time
- Find Chaos Emerald
- Go back in time
- Elise kidnapped again
- Fail to save Elise
- Go back in time again
- Save Elise

Shadow's story:
- Evil Shadow appears
- Get sent forward in time
- Find Chaos Emerald
- Go back in time
- Investigate Evil Shadow
- Go back in time again
- Learn how to stop Evil Shadow
- Go forward in time again
- Stop Evil Shadow

Silver's story:
- Large fiery demigod appears
- Evil Shadow says "Sonic's fault"
- Go back in time
- Try to attack Sonic
- Go back in time again
- Learn how to stop large fiery demigod
- Go forward in time again
- Stop large fiery demigod

They're not complicated stories at all, and that's more-or-less exactly how they're presented to you when you play the game.

Each of the three main characters is single-minded in pursuing their goal. They could do wondrous things with their ability to time travel if they ever figured out why it's limited to three points in spacetime, but they're busy. Sonic wants to save a princess, Shadow wants to stop a faker, Silver wants to stop the Flames of Disaster. Every decision they make is done with those goals in mind.

[The KKM]

Ell678, on 13 June 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

Regarding Elise, considering both her parents are dead, she should be the Queen, not a Princess. I mean, Princess may be a cuter title but Soleanna needs a ruler dammit!

Spoiler

in b4 someone brings up the Floating Island from Sonic Adventure for the 50th time

Wouldn't she be a Duchess, rather?

Generally speaking, with a healthy dosage of speculation you can cover any plot hole, from Gerald's changes in attitude of SA2 to Battle, to the relation between Blaze and Silver and Nega.

The moon is one I'm stumped on, though. Not the SA2 part, I can accept it shifted angle to show the full side always, and that the debris likely fell back into the moon due to gravitational pull. It's more the part where in certain games you see multiple moons. Ooer.

Also the planet shape-shifts from Shadow the Hedgehog to Sonic Unleashed

This post has been edited by The KKM: 15 June 2015 - 10:34 AM

[Xeal]

The KKM, on 15 June 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Also the planet shape-shifts from Shadow the Hedgehog to Sonic Unleashed

What do you mean by this?

[The KKM]

Xeal, on 15 June 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

The KKM, on 15 June 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Also the planet shape-shifts from Shadow the Hedgehog to Sonic Unleashed

What do you mean by this?

Shadow the Hedgehog



Sonic Unleashed

They're never really consistent with the planet's geography from game to game, but imo at least it's much more noticeable here since you have a game explicitly showing you the world map, and three years later a game all about the world map where it's looking entirely different

[DigitalDuck]

Isn't Sonic Unleashed set on a different planet?

[Xeal]

The KKM, on 15 June 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Xeal, on 15 June 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

The KKM, on 15 June 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Also the planet shape-shifts from Shadow the Hedgehog to Sonic Unleashed

What do you mean by this?

Shadow the Hedgehog



Sonic Unleashed

They're never really consistent with the planet's geography from game to game, but imo at least it's much more noticeable here since you have a game explicitly showing you the world map, and three years later a game all about the world map where it's looking entirely different

Huh. Well then.
I'm just gonna assume that after every game there are just massive tectonic shifts and somehow these massive eatthquakes that would result do no damage to structures and kills no one

[Overlord]

DigitalDuck, on 15 June 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Rule 3: Travelling to the past never changes the past (at least as far as non-omniscient beings are concerned).

That doesn't necessarily mean time is fixed - it could mean that time travel into the past changes the past and the future leading from that past, changing the history of the world and those performing the time travel, such that it appears to have always been the case. This is something known as "replacement", and when something works under replacement theory, it also works under both divergent universe theory and fixed time theory.

Or as Mikuru Asahina put it in the Haruhi-verse:

Quote

"Can you explain everything now?"

"Now where should I start?"

"You can start from the first prank which the little Asahina-san and I had to carry out like an errand." The prank where a poor man had to go to hospital for getting his foot injured after kicking a can that was nailed to the ground. It now felt like ages ago when I mentioned it again. "Was that really necessary?"

Asahina-san tilted her head and smiled softly, "Kyon-kun, please think carefully. Whether it be a few years ago or a few decades ago, if you could go back to the past......" She carefully chose her words, "And witness history in the making. Yet when that history is different from what you remember, what would you do?"

"What do you mean by 'different?'" I didn't understand what she was getting at.

"Let's say if you went back to one year ago today, what were you doing then?"

Probably shut up in my room playing video games. I don't remember getting giddy over someone sending me chocolates then.

Asahina-san nodded her head slightly, "Now try to imagine a situation that's different from that version of the past. When you travel back to your home one year ago, but find that you weren't living there. Instead of your sister or your parents, the place was now occupied by another family. Even your relatives have become different from the ones which you knew, living a totally different life in another place......"

How is that possible?

"When, after traveling to the past we find out that history is slightly different than it was as we knew it, do you know what we from the future would think? If every moment in history depended on interference from the future, then our future would never be able to exist if we did not interfere, and everything would change......" Asahina-san's voice began to stray away, as though feeling nostalgic about something. "A past where someone dies when they're supposed to live; or where two people have never even seen each other when they're supposed to be good friends; if we leave these situations alone, then our future would never arrive......" Her lonely smile was now cast in a lonely shroud, "I'll get to the point. The person who got injured kicking the empty can that you placed will meet a certain lady in the hospital. Afterwards, they get married and have children, and pass the torch to the next generation. This was all because he went to the hospital that day, otherwise those two would never have met in their whole lives." An image of the man smiling uncomfortably while looking up at me and Asahina-san flashed before my eyes. "The memory device was the same, it was necessary to deliver the data in that condition. Someone may have stumbled on similar data by coincidence, only this coincidence didn't exist in the past, perhaps it was erased. That was why we had to deliver the data ourselves, and try our best to make it look like a coincidence. Someone picks up a memory device from a flower bed, and just happens to send it to someone else at the right address." - She continued to explain.

I didn't know how to respond. That sure wasn't coincidental, not to mention the freak that appeared then, and handed the memory device to us. If he had decided to create trouble, then how would things turn out?

"He wouldn't dare, that piece of data means everything to the existence of his future as well. That was why he came to this time period," Asahina-san elaborated in simple terms. "For us future time-travelers, that is a pre-determined event; but for you and the recipient of the data, it's a coincidence. That's how time works."

[HP Zoner]

DigitalDuck: As I've mentioned before, this is all kind of a subjective matter, isn't it? Your explanation is perfectly valid, and I'm well aware of the many problems with Back to the Future, but you and I just see the glass half-full for different things. Nothing wrong with that (it's certainly nice to see some constructive counter-arguments about two subjects I like, at least).

Getting back to the topic at hand, remember when Sonic Unleashed used real location names for its levels (such as Apotos being Mykonos)? I suppose they did the right decision in the end, since it's vague enough to allow fans to come up with their own theories. You could say Sonic lives in our planet or a different one entirely, and most people wouldn't bat an eye.

[Felik]

HP Zoner, on 15 June 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

DigitalDuck: As I've mentioned before, this is all kind of a subjective matter, isn't it? Your explanation is perfectly valid, and I'm well aware of the many problems with Back to the Future, but you and I just see the glass half-full for different things. Nothing wrong with that (it's certainly nice to see some constructive counter-arguments about two subjects I like, at least).

His explanation of why Sonic 06 time travel is not any less competent than Back to the Future is objective and well argumented. Your reason why B2F time travel is more competent than 06 is basically "Back to the Future is better and I like it more so it must be better than 06 in every way"

[Xilla]

Regarding the Moon thing:

Just take the Sonic X route: Robotnik fixed it himself in order to say sorry for the shit he unleashed (and to make himself more popular than Sonic in the eyes of the public).

[The KKM]

We don't need to, we've an actual explanation given, silly as it is, remember?

[DigitalDuck]

HP Zoner, on 15 June 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

DigitalDuck: As I've mentioned before, this is all kind of a subjective matter, isn't it? Your explanation is perfectly valid, and I'm well aware of the many problems with Back to the Future, but you and I just see the glass half-full for different things. Nothing wrong with that (it's certainly nice to see some constructive counter-arguments about two subjects I like, at least).

It's not even a case of glass half-full for different things (for a start, I massively prefer BTTF); when the time travel element is compared, for the most part Sonic '06 works and BTTF doesn't.