[Super Napalm]

It's a discussion that probably crops up every day on a Sonic/Sega forum but this was still a pretty awesome video. Projared brings up the flaws while also being hilarious. He also reminds us of the sole reason we still play the game...

Well worth 25 minutes of your time

I love his channel, even though he started losing his Nuzlockes on purpose

This post has been edited by Super Napalm: 19 April 2015 - 04:57 PM

[Shadic]

He's not wrong, for the most part.

The Sonic/Shadow stages themselves are a bit overrated imo, but oh well. I guess the engine is just smoother to me or something, since despite SA1 having (imo) better music, often better stages, a neat overworld, Tails, better emerald hunting, better story, AND E102 > Tails/Eggman, I still put significantly more time into SA2:B.

Alas.

[Jason]

Personally, I've grown to hate SA2, mainly because of the younger section of the fan base that worships it. It's marginally worse than SA1, because even though I hated the hub world (which is why I bought my first Prima guide out of frustration), SA2's Sonic levels were more linear and less interesting.

But more than anything, the music is my least favorite of the Adventure era. There's a lot less variation in styles between levels, and I'm sick of Escape from the City and Live & Learn. They're not that great.

And as for the Chao Garden, count me as one of the people who hated it. He talks about how the treasure hunting stages were the antithesis of Sonic? Is argue that these virtual pets are more antithetical. At least I feel like I'm doing something with Knuckles. The Chao are just... there, eating up my rings and drives to a purpose I never cared about. It should definitely be a mobile game by now for those people who love it, though. Even keep the meta going by tying items to achievements in other Sega mobile titles. But Sega doesn't have much in the way of sense these days.

Without fail, when I ask anyone born after 1995, they say their favorite Sonic game is SA2. Nostalgia is a powerful thing (hell, it's a good chunk of why we're here), but sometimes I wish that Sonic Advance was the big introduction to franchise for Nintendo kids of a certain age and not this.

This post has been edited by Jason: 19 April 2015 - 06:20 PM

[Xeal]

*flips laptop*

Seriously? This monotony again?

[TheKazeblade]

I do believe that the characters themselves handle well. Sonic and Shadow both have a degree of control both at low and high speeds that always feel solid, but the level designs and camera can more often than not work against the player causing almost all of the problems. Were it not for the redundant summersault and unpredictable rail jumping mechanic, I would say the controls themselves are perfect.

I may be in the minority that SA2's Emerald Hunting stages never bothered me all that much besides the awful camera. I even liked Aquatic Mine because I enjoyed exploring the optional areas. The radar only sensing one shard at a time was definitely a poor design decision to be sure, but at least the beeping wasn't nearly as obnoxious as SA1's.

The shooter stages have a solid mechanic, but it was nowhere near polished enough to have been included in the game. It was forgivable in SA1's Gamma stages because the levels were shorter and the levels themselves were designed much more like a shooting gallery. But SA2's were poorly executed and the biggest issue with the game.

The speed/hunting styles were pretty close to being completely successful, but lack of overall mechanical refinement and some really spotty level design really held it back. I feel like SA2 was 6 months away from being a really great game. As-is, it's mediocre.

And yes, the cutscenes are all completely inexcusable. By 2001 there was no excuse for Sonic Team failing as badly as they did in the sound mixing, animating and choreography.

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 19 April 2015 - 06:38 PM

[::CMG (UTOPIA)::]

Jason, on 19 April 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Personally, I've grown to hate SA2, mainly because of the younger section of the fan base that worships it. It's marginally worse than SA1, because even though I hated the hub world (which is why I bought my first Prima guide out of frustration), SA2's Sonic levels were more linear and less interesting.

But more than anything, the music is my least favorite of the Adventure era. There's a lot less variation in styles between levels, and I'm sick of Escape from the City and Live & Learn. They're not that great.

And as for the Chao Garden, count me as one of the people who hated it. He talks about how the treasure hunting stages were the antithesis of Sonic? Is argue that these virtual pets are more antithetical. At least I feel like I'm doing something with Knuckles. The Chao are just... there, eating up my rings and drives to a purpose I never cared about. It should definitely be a mobile game by now for those people who love it, though. Even keep the meta going by tying items to achievements in other Sega mobile titles. But Sega doesn't have much in the way of sense these days.

Without fail, when I ask anyone born after 1995, they say their favorite Sonic game is SA2. Nostalgia is a powerful thing (hell, it's a good chunk of why we're here), but sometimes I wish that Sonic Advance was the big introduction to franchise for Nintendo kids of a certain age and not this.

Thank you for putting into words exactly what I have always thought about the game. Glad to see I'm not the only one that feels this way. In fact only thing I like about SA2 is the knuckles space stage song.

It's mostly the controls & camera that kill it for me. Between this and SA1, I can't go 5 minutes through it without wanting to shut the game off. Banjno Kazooie, Spyro The Dragon, Super Mario 64, and even Sonic R has better controls & cameras than Sonic Adventure 1 & 2.

[TimmiT]

I pretty much agree with everything ProJared says in his review. The Sonic/Shadow levels are great, the rest not so much. I can still somewhat enjoy the game though because of nostalgia though.

As for Chao Garden, I don't really like it. But that's more because it's not for me than it being badly designed I think.

[Skyler]

This review says pretty much what I (and a lot of us) have been saying for years.

[TimmiT]

Skyler, on 20 April 2015 - 03:40 AM, said:

This review says pretty much what I (and a lot of us) have been saying for years.

We sure have. I mean, ProJared's does point out some different problems and focuses more on specific levels, but the conclusion is the same: Sonic/Shadow levels and Chao Garden are the only good parts of the game.

This post has been edited by TimmiT: 20 April 2015 - 03:51 AM

[Morph]

I think he's totally right. I still love SA2 for those parts that are... well, "OK", but having replayed it once I got it on Steam... I almost didn't finish it. I played it several times over on the Dreamcast and GameCube. It was so boring playing anyone other than Sonic or Shadow, and Shadow only has like, what, 3 or 4 stages? By contrast, I enjoyed playing everyone but Big in SA1, and even Big's stages were still interesting. All of his stages take place in other characters' stages, but with expanded explorable areas that couldn't be accessed by anyone else. Just have a look at Ice Cap or Emerald Coast.

On the tangent of SA1, I sorta want to see him take a stab at it; whether it be the original or DX. Gameplay-wise it's all the same, so it doesn't matter which. The problem is the re-release 360/PS3/Steam versions though. For the sake of ease and consistent quality, it would have to either be the Dreamcast or GameCube versions.

Before the video went live though, it occurred to me that most of the stages in SA2 are hallways/roads/half pipes. SA1's level design was way more open-ended (or at least, disguised much better), and I guess that sorta re-enforces my undying love for SA1. I liked the Chao a lot better in SA2 than SA1 though. I'd just shoot up the place as Gamma in SA1. It was much improved in DX, but by time I got that (on PC--I got a GameCube way later) I already burned myself out when it comes to Chao. Probably why I had so much trouble getting through SA2 on Steam again.

Honestly, I kind of like to think of SA2 as an excuse to just make a multiplayer Sonic Adventure. As such, Shadow is just a cool skin for when Sonic has been chosen already. =P

also screw you crazy gadget is best level

::CMG (UTOPIA)::, on 20 April 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

Banjno Kazooie, Spyro The Dragon, Super Mario 64, and even Sonic R has better controls & cameras than Sonic Adventure 1 & 2.

I really don't think this is a fair comparison. Those games nearly never reach the same speeds, and when they do, they're in much more controlled environments--e.g specially designed paths (Spyro) or slides (SM64, although admittedly I haven't played the whole thing). I suppose you could argue all of SA1 and SA2 are controlled environments, but they don't limit your range of control like the examples I gave (which I personally find to be a good thing).

Edit: And to clarify, I'm trying to make the point that the camera is "better" in those games because the player is under full control at all times since the game is slow enough that it isn't an absolute nightmare to deal with.

On the note of the camera, I'd argue taking away control of the camera is effectively a requirement for games of these speeds. This is especially the case in SA2 over SA1, where there's a much larger emphasis on speed. Consequently, you have no control over your camera unless you're at a complete stand-still, whereas SA1 was much more lenient--allowing you to rotate as you ran, and even override the stage camera by holding both triggers. Ever wonder why you could only pan your camera in Unleashed (unless you were in a hub, where camera rotation is a must), and why that was completely omitted from Generations?

I'd bet the camera systems of any of those games would break down much like free cam does in SADX at the same speeds as SADX.

Edit: I can never make a post without editing it hundreds of times, can I?

This post has been edited by Morph: 20 April 2015 - 06:00 AM

[High Fidelity]

Jason, on 19 April 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Personally, I've grown to hate SA2, mainly because of the younger section of the fan base that worships it. It's marginally worse than SA1, because even though I hated the hub world (which is why I bought my first Prima guide out of frustration), SA2's Sonic levels were more linear and less interesting.

This, and how Sega 'should make Sonic Adventure 3'. The only way to make a decent 3D Sonic game is to copy the adventure series apparently

[Felik]

When I saw that video I immediately thought that he's just gonna bash SA2, just like he bashed Sonic Boom when he was making his "worst games of 2014" list even though he stated that he's not gonna put movie/cartoon tie-in games on that list.
But surprisingly he's opinion on the game is honest with no "Sonic was never good" or "Sonic should just die" bullshit.

[TimmiT]

Felik, on 20 April 2015 - 06:38 AM, said:

When I saw that video I immediately thought that he's just gonna bash SA2, just like he bashed Sonic Boom when he was making his "worst games of 2014" list even though he stated that he's not gonna put movie/cartoon tie-in games on that list.
But surprisingly he's opinion on the game is honest with no "Sonic was never good" or "Sonic should just die" bullshit.

Yeah, it seems like he's willing to give Sonic games a fair shot at least. He also gave Sonic Generations a try on a live stream and he seemed to like it.

Also, about Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric being a cartoon tie-in: it kinda isn't. There's a lot of stuff that indicates that the game was in production before the cartoon, so the cartoon is more of a tie-in to the game than the other way around.

This post has been edited by TimmiT: 20 April 2015 - 07:53 AM

[Super Napalm]

I count myself as one of those who did actually play more Chao Garden than anything else once I completed the Last Story, only venturing outside City Escape and a couple other stages to get the required animals for the 'Immortal Chao'
.....Then the editor for the PC version came out and I just stopped altogether, temptation was too much ><

Going back to Projared and Sonic Boom, his one minute review pretty much makes it unnecessary to watch any full length one including his own

This post has been edited by Super Napalm: 20 April 2015 - 08:16 AM

[Xeal]

Well after actually watching the video and not continuing to look at this thread based off of my earlier presumptions (see above post) -
I agree with him 100 percent. A majority of this game is honestly monotonous bullshit that we force ourselves to go through, whilst enjoying the tiny bits that are Sonic/Shadow. I also do love his statement at the end because it's not one that ever crossed my mind in these past 8 years (although it was very apparent because I did it the whole fucking time) was that I always went back to the Sonic/Shadow stages and the chao garden. I never went back to the other stages. I've never put SA2 on such a high pedestal that a majority of the fanbase does because again, the game is no where near as good as anyone says it is. It is, as a majority, garbage except for Sonic, Shadow, and the chao garden. Hooray for voices of reason.

This post has been edited by Xeal: 20 April 2015 - 09:34 AM