[synchronizer]

There exists unused adventure field title card music?

[Dude]

I feel as though Sonic Adventure and Adventure 2 are the only 3d sonic games where you can accurately place the character. In the boost games, Sonic's turning radius is near useless for 3d navigation.

[E-122-Psi]

Caniad Bach, on 06 December 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I actually prefer SA1 to SA2 because I think the first one is far more refined. With all it's rehashed levels, shitty backgrounds and clone characters, Sonic Adventure 2 comes off as being rushed as hell.

I actually agree with this. SA2 was more polished than SA1, but it was worse in concept. Gamma and Knuckles' levels in SA1 were a bit broken and unfinished, but the fun still shone out in terms of how the characters played, which still felt at least marginally Sonic-y. In SA2 mech and treasure hunting is made ridiculously duller and more tedious, with more linear and repetitive structure (was there any real profit from castrating the radar like that?) and the characters feeling clunkier and more rigid. There were some fun new additions, but few felt like they couldn't have worked much better in SA1.

Also while Big and Amy weren't brilliant per se, I liked having that alternate gameplay mode to unlock and slowly go through in my own pace, it was like a fun extra game after you were done with Sonic. I remember not thinking the other characters were epic to play as, but being intrigued at getting a new character to roam through the game as, similar to when I first got to play as Knuckles in the Genesis series. In SA2, it's more limited, there's three gameplay modes and you are FORCED to switch between them mid story. I think that was truly the start of the franchise genuinely pushing it's supporting characters onto you.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2014 - 01:50 PM

[Polish Pete]

E-122-Psi, on 06 December 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Caniad Bach, on 06 December 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I actually prefer SA1 to SA2 because I think the first one is far more refined. With all it's rehashed levels, shitty backgrounds and clone characters, Sonic Adventure 2 comes off as being rushed as hell.

I actually agree with this. SA2 was more polished than SA1, but it was worse in concept. Gamma and Knuckles' levels in SA1 were a bit broken and unfinished, but the fun still shone out in terms of how the characters played, which still felt at least marginally Sonic-y. In SA2 mech and treasure hunting is made ridiculously duller and more tedious, with more linear and repetitive structure (was there any real profit from castrating the radar like that?) and the characters feeling clunkier and more rigid. There were some fun new additions, but few felt like they couldn't have worked much better in SA1.

Also while Big and Amy weren't brilliant per se, I liked having that alternate gameplay mode to unlock and slowly go through in my own pace, it was like a fun extra game after you were done with Sonic. I remember not thinking the other characters were epic to play as, but being intrigued at getting a new character to roam through the game as, similar to when I first got to play as Knuckles in the Genesis series. In SA2, it's more limited, there's three gameplay modes and you are FORCED to switch between them mid story. I think that was truly the start of the franchise genuinely pushing it's supporting characters onto you.

Ditto. While SA1 was somewhat glitchy and unpolished, it still felt like a legitimate good Sonic game, because it actually managed to bring all the elements of the classic Sonic games into a 3D environment. It had a great game concept and story to go with as well.
SA2 on the other hand, while it seems more polished than SA1... it still feels somewhat worse. The story felt rushed, you could practically take Amy and Knuckles out of the story and it would barely change anything. As for the gameplay, it might as well have been just Sonic and Eggman being playable, while Tails, Shadow and Rouge just stuck to the story. And I don't think ANYONE has enjoyed the Emerald hunting in this game, especially considering how the radar and hints got butchered. Oh, but no, the developers HAD to appease the fans by adding all that unnecesary junk into the game. And yeah, I have to agree that it's here where the quality of the Sonic games started to drop.

[E-122-Psi]

As an extra note, if there's one thing I think Next Gen supplied well in, it was developing on SA1's intertwined pathways for different characters in the same level. While the levels themselves might not be considered as good, it was more clever and developed in how it gave each player a unique pathway (eg. Gamma's Emerald Coast pathway is basically just a shortened version of Sonic's, Blaze's Wave Ocean however has loads of unique areas innovated according to her move set and clever ways of intertwining with Sonic's path).

If there's one thing to single out I wish SA1 supplied better in, it was making the game fine tuned for each character to stick out. While it's probably best they put the most attention into Sonic's story, I wish the others' weren't so limited. Amy's seemed like the only one whose level routes didn't feel like an afterthought, and even then she only had THREE altogether, with one unique sub game.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2014 - 03:06 PM

[muteKi]

I felt like Knuckles' levels were quite adequately finished in this game. While I suppose people wanted more Knuckles (because, really, who doesn't want more Knuckles?), the fact that the treasure hunting stages all took place on levels that were pretty open and that you could know the layout of going in from Sonic's game meant it was a lot less frustrating than in SA2. Each level could be beaten in less than a minute! Not so for SA2, where the hunting stages were a real drag -- and generally far more reliant on obtuse gimmicks, closed-off areas, and backtracking (not to mention a crappier emerald radar!)

[Andrea Ritsu]

The only bit with Knuckles that really doesn't work is Sky Deck because of the tilt mechanic, apart from that I think I liked every single stage he had in the first game.

[E-122-Psi]

I think the Knuckles' game may have worked better if:

1. it was longer (maybe like 6 or 7 levels to put it up to standard Sonic game standards and a couple of unique sub games).

2. the stages didn't feel patronisingly easy. I mean I definitely agree with how tedious SA2 was, but SA1's emeralds were hid in all of about five or so locations and usually far too blatant and obvious. Making it at least a little more varied without getting convoluted would have made it more fun and added replay value (most of the stages had loads of nooks and crannies that could have easily been utilised anyway).

My complaints with Gamma are mainly the same (the whole shooting level with mini boss setup could have been a joy, but the levels end too quickly and the bosses barely put up a fight). It was very fun, but it was kinda let down by how much of a pushover it was.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2014 - 04:46 PM

[KalHal]

I'm sure Knuckles did need a bit more polishing in the level design, but I wouldn't mind seeing an update of the treasure formula in 2015.
Yes, Gamma did have the least amount of fun, but I tried to make the most fun out of it myself, and I think the game overall just needs a bit more work, more kinks.

But overall, generally, if anyone would complain about Amy, Gamma, and Big being slow, I wouldn't. Changing up the pace has been apparent from the beginning, tracing all the way back to Marble Zone.
It's only fair, but I'd like to see SEGA try again, while removing all the crap that didn't work, like multiple things with the gameplay of the slower characters.

[E-122-Psi]

Oh I adored Gamma's gameplay, I just wish it didn't end so quickly after it had just started. Seriously Gamma's Final Egg is possibly the shortest Sonic level ever (which is a shame because the gimmick of it being Sonic's last level backwards was a neat idea).

Truthfully I don't think anything needs to be taken out of SA1 to make it work better, just refined. I'm sorta on the side that the side trio should have been a bit faster, not to Sonic's level however, just enough to make their gameplay less tedious (Big and Amy are slow, even by other platformers' standards, and Gamma's rolling mode might have been more worth gaining momentum for if it had a more significant speed change).

Something I noticed in a lot of Big's levels are areas and objects that seems to have been left to one side, like they were supposed to be more a mix of platforming and fishing (similar to Hot Shelter) but they thought it was too convoluted so dumbed it down to the character's gimmick. I could imagine Big's levels would have been more fun if they had developed that small bit of platforming and fine tuned the fishing to be less tedious and long drawn.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2014 - 04:59 PM

[Strife]

E-122-Psi, on 06 December 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Caniad Bach, on 06 December 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

I actually prefer SA1 to SA2 because I think the first one is far more refined. With all it's rehashed levels, shitty backgrounds and clone characters, Sonic Adventure 2 comes off as being rushed as hell.

I actually agree with this. SA2 was more polished than SA1, but it was worse in concept. Gamma and Knuckles' levels in SA1 were a bit broken and unfinished, but the fun still shone out in terms of how the characters played, which still felt at least marginally Sonic-y. In SA2 mech and treasure hunting is made ridiculously duller and more tedious, with more linear and repetitive structure (was there any real profit from castrating the radar like that?) and the characters feeling clunkier and more rigid. There were some fun new additions, but few felt like they couldn't have worked much better in SA1.

Also while Big and Amy weren't brilliant per se, I liked having that alternate gameplay mode to unlock and slowly go through in my own pace, it was like a fun extra game after you were done with Sonic. I remember not thinking the other characters were epic to play as, but being intrigued at getting a new character to roam through the game as, similar to when I first got to play as Knuckles in the Genesis series. In SA2, it's more limited, there's three gameplay modes and you are FORCED to switch between them mid story. I think that was truly the start of the franchise genuinely pushing it's supporting characters onto you.

This is kinda where I stand. SA2 was the beginning of a dark path for Sonic games that would culminate in '06, and the linearity of the levels and the restriction of playing as specific characters left me disappointed. I felt like I was being forced to play the game the way they -wanted- me to play it. SA1 felt like I could play mostly as one character without missing out on anything major, while still offering some great bonuses for people who 100% it (such as the Super Sonic arc).

It'd be pretty cool if SADX modding got to the point where the game could get just a bit more polish - say, fixing all of the oddities caused by the porting job so it feels like it has the same refinement as the original Dreamcast version but with the updated models and framerate.

This post has been edited by Strife: 06 December 2014 - 06:19 PM

[E-122-Psi]

True. I think the Fixed Edition project has potential, but things would need to get to a point programmers can truly take the game apart to get it in full working order. One big obstacle is making competent cutscenes, as glorious as it would be to get something like this:



I wouldn't mind seeing some more mundane forms of the level editing we see here, like what would some of aforementioned incomplete level designs could look like properly worked on.

It's a shame we don't have more documentation as to how the game would have been, then we could make proper 'finished' rendition.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 06 December 2014 - 08:49 PM

[Morph]

E-122-Psi, on 06 December 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

True. I think the Fixed Edition project has potential, but we would need to get to a point we can truly take the game apart to get it in full working order.

I've been working on fixed edition, and the SADX mod loader makes it possible to do code changes very easily. I already have, too! I restored some functionality that was seemingly there at one point, but it got disabled also seemingly because it was rarely used (which I'll be posting about soon). The only things that I can't do are just a matter of sorting through the disassembly, and many things in SADX apply to SA2 as well which really helps.

Edit: ninja edit

I'm sure we'll have a cutscene and/or animation editor at some point...!

This post has been edited by Morph: 06 December 2014 - 08:49 PM

[E-122-Psi]

Morph, on 06 December 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

E-122-Psi, on 06 December 2014 - 08:20 PM, said:

True. I think the Fixed Edition project has potential, but we would need to get to a point we can truly take the game apart to get it in full working order.

I've been working on fixed edition, and the SADX mod loader makes it possible to do code changes very easily. I already have, too! I restored some functionality that was seemingly there at one point, but it got disabled also seemingly because it was rarely used (which I'll be posting about soon). The only things that I can't do are just a matter of sorting through the disassembly, and many things in SADX apply to SA2 as well which really helps.

Edit: ninja edit />

I'm sure we'll have a cutscene and/or animation editor at some point...!

Really? I thought SADX was said to be rather limited in terms of hacking the actual gameplay engine. I'm eager to seeing what's been cracked open now. :D

[Sparks]

I will say that Sonic Adventure 2 does feel like it improved on Adventure 1s problems a lot. There were still camera issues here and there, and sometimes I'd find Sonic going in weird directions (the half pipe in Green Forest (or White Jungle?) comes to mind). When my friend and I are playing vs. mode, there's rarely any gameplay related issues, so I think that says something about how well its aged. It's by no means a perfect platformer, and definitely one that requires some patience, but I can at least say anytime my friend wants to play some Adventure 2 Battle, I'm completely up for it. Shoot, I would love for a multiplayer Sonic game where you did nothing but race friends, Sonic Adventure 2 Battle was great for that. Referring to the Sonic/Shadow levels, of course. We pretty much ignore the shooting, emerald hunting and kart modes.