[David The Lurker]

big smile, on 04 December 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

I think the Game Gear games are a separate continuity for the following reasons:

• The GG games only seem to have six emeralds. there isn't a 7th Emerald.
  
• Most of the stories are set on South Island
  
• It's said if the Emeralds leave South Island, it will sink. This doesn't happen in the main series.
  
• S&T2 mentions that Knuckles is a stranger, so this is the first time they meet in that universe.
  
• Iizuka didn't want them in Sonic Generations.

hello how are you my name is fine

BlackHole, on 04 December 2014 - 01:53 PM, said:

Anyway, I recall reading one 'translation' where that apparently was the case:

Quote

The man called himself Dr. Eggman, and already knew Knuckles was the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds. He said to Knuckles:

"I am a scientist who came here to stop (?) that egg. Uumu, since you are the Chaos Emeralds' guardian I knew I had to inform you. The truth is, there is an evil hedgehog named Sonic that has been interfering in my research, he is the one who has stolen this island's Chaos Emeralds."

Ah, that's an older translation of the manual. SamIAm (wherever he may be) went through it again, trying to be more accurate while sacrificing some of the style.

Quote

Over the next few days, Knuckle went around to all 7 of the Chaos Emerald altars on the island, but every last Emerald had disappeared without a trace. Then, refusing to give up in spite of all this, Knuckle was investigating all over the island when he came across a man he was unfamiliar with.
This man, who called himself Dr. Eggman, knew that Knuckle was the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds, and told him this:

"I happen to be a scientist who has come here to study that egg. Hmm, and if you're the guardian of the Chaos Emeralds, I suppose I must tell you this. The truth is, there's this bad hedgehog called Sonic who is getting in the way of my research, and it looks like he's come to the island with his eyes on those Chaos Emeralds. [1]

For some reason, I doubt the Sonic the Comic authors had this piece of information, but perhaps it's just one of those things where great minds think alike? After all, Knuckles' motivations for stealing the Chaos Emeralds makes a bit more sense in the beginning of Sonic the Hedgehog 3. If Knuckles is guarding a set, and Sonic shows up with an identical set, there's no reason for Knuckles to think they're not the same Chaos Emeralds. In the confusion that is the Death Egg crashing on the island, Knuckles hides them in the one safe place he knows - the Hidden Palace Zone. But what does Sonic do during Sonic 3? He collects seven Chaos Emeralds by jumping into giant warp rings.

So you have this grand tale where Knuckles is constantly trying to mess with our heroes, but Sonic continues to collect the Emeralds. Knuckles? He never tries to steal any back. Yes, that has to do with the gameplay, as having Knuckles steal your Emeralds if you've collected six and then having to go back and get them again would be silly, but perhaps it's a case where Knuckles doesn't think Sonic has gotten any of them back? The first time we see Knuckles in the proper version of Mushroom Hill, he is being sneaky, making sure no one sees that he's returned from a mysterious locale which he visited through the pulsating giant ring. When Sonic goes to explore and jumps in, he is instantly transported not to a special stage, but the Hidden Palace. If Knuckles had just been there, then he saw the seven Chaos Emeralds he had stolen from Sonic in the same place he put them, and had no reason to think Sonic had stolen them back. Knuckles, therefore, is not present to witness what happens when Sonic steps in, where the Chaos Emeralds undergo a transformation into seven, much larger emeralds. Sonic has to jump on each to make them colorized, going through the process of restoring the Emeralds to their original state, going back into the Special Stages to have them be whole again.

The fact Knuckles is said to have his own set of Emeralds in the instruction manual to Sonic 3 is a very deliberate piece of information, especially since the Master Emerald had to have been conceived of as well. Sonic Adventure even deals with this in a very subtle way. While there are only ever seven Chaos Emeralds, the ones in the past are different than the ones in the present. The seven in the unaltered shrine, perched high atop their pillars, are much larger than the ones seen anywhere else. Just like how the Chaos Emeralds have changed shape and size when reintroduced to the Hidden Palace shrine. Sonic Adventure also plays with the idea of there being two sides to the Emeralds. Super Sonic stops Perfect Chaos before things can be altered forever, but the drastic measures taken by Tikal? Could have created a separate set of Emeralds, with seven being scattered across the globe, and another seven being left on what would become Angel Island. That would be the status quo, the 14 Emeralds having the altered shape, until that prophesied encounter between Sonic and Eggman on the floating island.

DigitalDuck, on 04 December 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

I was under the impression that each island had its own set of emeralds. Most have seven, South Island has six, wherever Fighters is set has eight.

Well that's silly. And only because, hey, if there are more than seven emeralds, why doesn't Eggman just steal one from every island he visits?

[BlackHole]

David The Lurker, on 04 December 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

DigitalDuck, on 04 December 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

I was under the impression that each island had its own set of emeralds. Most have seven, South Island has six, wherever Fighters is set has eight.

Well that's silly. And only because, hey, if there are more than seven emeralds, why doesn't Eggman just steal one from every island he visits?

He does try. I recall reading that Mystic Cave Zone is him digging about for the Emeralds, though since it's from the English manuals, I'm not sure how canon it is:

Quote

Robotnik's been digging for Chaos Emeralds in this eerie forest of flickering lights, glow-worms and stinging centipedes. Hang on to the ivy to discover escape routes.

It's just a case of Sonic coming in and getting involved each time, which stops him before he can find any, if he would since he seems to be entirely unaware of the Special Stages.

[winterhell]

David The Lurker, on 04 December 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

if there are more than seven emeralds, why doesn't Eggman just steal one from every island he visits?

They amplify each other only when they are from the same set.

While the individual ones may have power on their own, it probably doesn't work very well for the same reasons Robotnik doesn't unleash several metal Sonics or Death Egg Robots at once. There are diminishing returns and compatibility issues. 2 Metal Sonics have the potential to bump into each other and friendly fire, not unlike in Knuckles's storyline in Sky Sanctuary.

This post has been edited by winterhell: 04 December 2014 - 05:00 PM

[David The Lurker]

winterhell, on 04 December 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

David The Lurker, on 04 December 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

if there are more than seven emeralds, why doesn't Eggman just steal one from every island he visits?

They amplify each other only when they are from the same set.

While the individual ones may have power on their own, it probably doesn't work very well for the same reasons Robotnik doesn't unleash several metal Sonics or Death Egg Robots at once. There are diminishing returns and compatibility issues. 2 Metal Sonics have the potential to bump into each other and friendly fire, not unlike in Knuckles's storyline in Sky Sanctuary.

Eh. With that same logic, why make a fleet of badniks? They might start attacking each other, best to only make one.

It makes more sense if there is only one main set (the discrepancy being the extra set on Angel Island, which I already theorized above). Dr. Eggman doesn't go to West Side island because he knows there are additional sets of Chaos Emeralds, he follows Sonic because the doctor thinks following him will lead him back to the emeralds. The last Eggman knew, Sonic had the six in his possession, and might not have known that once they "fixed" the Green Hill Zone, they vanished. Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2? Yes, I know, not the classic era, but everyone is concerned with finding only seven emeralds. Emeralds that are scattered about different locations, not hidden in an alternate dimension accessible only from one island. And Sonic Adventure, Tails does say he's powering the Tornado II "with one of the seven Chaos Emeralds," implying there's only one set of seven, not multiple sets of six, seven and eight all over the place. Now, if he had said "one of the of the seven emeralds from Station Square" or something like that, then I could see it.

[DigitalDuck]

David The Lurker, on 04 December 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Well that's silly. And only because, hey, if there are more than seven emeralds, why doesn't Eggman just steal one from every island he visits?

Why doesn't he just use those forcefield things that hold Sonic in Wing Fortress and Flying Battery and leave him there, instead of blowing up the ship by trying to fire a massive laser at him?

Because he's a moron.

[big smile]

Quote

hello how are you my name is fine

Sorry. When I came to thread, I didn't have time to read your excellent post, so I planned to read it later. Then I forgot!

Quote

The fact Knuckles is said to have his own set of Emeralds in the instruction manual to Sonic 3 is a very deliberate piece of information, especially since the Master Emerald had to have been conceived of as well. Sonic Adventure even deals with this in a very subtle way. While there are only ever seven Chaos Emeralds, the ones in the past are different than the ones in the present. The seven in the unaltered shrine, perched high atop their pillars, are much larger than the ones seen anywhere else. Just like how the Chaos Emeralds have changed shape and size when reintroduced to the Hidden Palace shrine. Sonic Adventure also plays with the idea of there being two sides to the Emeralds. Super Sonic stops Perfect Chaos before things can be altered forever, but the drastic measures taken by Tikal? Could have created a separate set of Emeralds, with seven being scattered across the globe, and another seven being left on what would become Angel Island. That would be the status quo, the 14 Emeralds having the altered shape, until that prophesied encounter between Sonic and Eggman on the floating island.

I used to love theories like these as there are so many little clues to support them. There was also the Japanese Mega Collection guide that confirmed that the Master Emerald had powered up the Chaos Emeralds. The clues had to be deliberate: It was like Sonic Team had hidden an indirect story for those who were willing to the detective work.
But then Iizuka said at Sonic Boom that after S3&K there were too many Emeralds, so they just went back to 7 for Sonic Adventure, implying that they just wanted to do a retcon. He also confirmed at another event that there are only 7 Emeralds, with the exception of 6 in Sonic 1.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

It's very difficult to just retcon a series when the answer is so obviously there. No one has to listen to Iikuza- it's not like he really knows what he's talking about. I suppose as long as the pieces are there and fans can put them together that's all that's important.

I suppose it's not even really a retcon - they just have never elaborated on it, making it a mystery.

[KalHal]

Retcons aren't very hard to interpret for a video game series, until the amount of games goes up made for that franchise.
The 7 emeralds aren't exactly said to where they should be during the next game. I'm sure fans have made it clear that they spread out after using them, which, I can agree with too.
It's kinda like a frozen Popsicle. It stays consistent, like a plot, then it just nosedives in to a ton of story elements that I'm sure that will melt the said frozen treat. That's just my view of it, though.

[The KKM]

OH BOY ALLOW ME TO DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE NONSENSE DAVID DID

"what classic games are canon" well son I tell you ALL OF THEM

Here's the rules we're following

1- Sonic Team/STI stuff trumps everything else
2- Art styles change. Sonic Spinball looking like SatAM or Sonic 4 having Modern Sonic doesn't mean they're not canon.
3- The Chaos Emeralds are bullshit. They'll teleport and change their own rules out of nowhere, almost as if sentient. Sometimes they go to the Special Stage, sometimes they shove themselves into South Island.
4- Feel free to retcon- let's imagine a world where SEGA does Gamefreak-esque remakes of these games so they fit

SO

SONIC 1

We start here. We can either assume it happened just like the Mega Drive game and the 8bit version happens later, or mix both into a game with more zones.

Sonic 2 connects to Sonic 3 which connects to Sonic and Knuckles, as stated by the manuals. Sonic 4's first site stated Sonic 4 starts right after Sonic and Knuckles, so Sonic 4 NEEDS to be here. Sonic 4 has Sonic CD already having happened, and we just established Sonic 2 to Sonic 4 Ep 1 is hermetically shut, so SONIC CD IS AFTER 1.

After that you get Chaotix, and a bunch of empty period perfect for lots of nonsense, ending in Adventure, which is the climax for the Classic era.

So grabbing this skeleton, we get

Sonic 1 -> (EMPTY PERIOD 1A period where any game without characters introduced after Sonic 2 can fit in) -> Sonic CD -> (EMPTY PERIOD 1B more period where any game without characters introduced after Sonic 2 can fit in) -> Sonic 2, Sonic 3, Sonic and Knuckles, Sonic 4 Ep 1, Sonic 4 Ep 2, implied Ep 3 where Little Planet is restored, Chaotix (the stories all flow together) -> (EMPTY PERIOD 2 period where any other classic game that didn't fit the previous two periods fits, plus technically and potentially Advance) -> Adventure

So. What can we put in those three periods?

EMPTY PERIODS 1A AND 1B

For starters, Tails' Adventure goes behind Sonic 1. We know that, Tails still hasn't met Sonic, it's his first adventure, blah blah. I like to assume he got a boost of confidence by beating the Battle Kukku, which led him to journey to Westside Island, where he was prompty bullied hard enough to get his confidence dampened until Sonic inspired him.

In the Sonic 1 -> 2 Period, go all the spinoffs and early games that focused only on Sonic and Eggman, no matter how stupid. Eraser? Sonic was having a nightmare. Patrol Car? Eggman's being a dick in the road so Sonic takes the chance to be a policeman for a day just for the experience. Galaxy Patrol? Eggman took the animals to space. By a big coincidence there's a space station named Sonic. That kind of stuff.

SEGASonic the Hedgehog could technically be behind Sonic 1, as could many of these, but I like the idea of Sonic 1 being, while not their first conflict, the first one we see.

As mentioned, we can put Sonic 1 8bit here if we haven't mixed it with Sonic 1. Sonic 2 8bit goes into the third period- Sonic 2 MD is when Sonic and Tails first meet.

Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine can work here too. Just pretend the art style is SEGASonic.


EMPTY PERIOD 2

Most GameGear games go here. All the ones that didn't go into the empty period above. Knuckles is conflicted between guarding the Emerald and meeting people so he keeps kinda abandoning the Island to go be a jerk to Sonic. Consider it his period of irresponsability. At some point something makes him realise he has to get his shit together- I like to think either Sonic R or, if we're putting Advance 1 before Adventure, Advance 1's Mecha Knuckles showed him it was time to stop all the fun and games and go back to guard the Emerald.

There's a company named Sonic. There, that's the retcon I'm doing for there being a space station named Sonic and also a Game Center named Sonic, where Sonic and friends go spend a day but Eggman goes fuck things up.

Retcon time! Sonic Spinball has no Chaos Emeralds. Those are, in a SatAM nod, Power Gems. Things remain roughly the same otherwise, just assume, as with Mean Bean Machine, a different art style.

Retcon time! Sonic the Fighters had only 7 Chaos Emeralds. You can either go with the Archie-based joke I saw in a fancomic once that Bean's Emerald was just a random shiny object, or assume Fang tried to trick them with a fake Emerald.

Also featuring Sonic being teacher for a game and... I suppose Tails and the Music Maker is a relatively correct summation of his daily life.

Notes

All the competition games' stories (Fighters being the exception) revolve around Sonic and friends having fun and Eggman crashing in to dick around

Knuckles was guarding the Chaos Emeralds. As we established, the Chaos Emeralds tend to appear and reappear and disappear as they please. This is why he thinks Sonic stole them- Sonic 1 has them disappearing to appear in South Island.

Games revolving around 6 Emeralds instead of 7 result in one of the Emeralds sometimes not appearing. Again, this is kinda cheating, but I do enjoy the idea of the Emeralds just being inconvenient and irrational like this.

This post has been edited by The KKM: 10 December 2014 - 03:58 PM

[Bobinator]

Personally, I always thought that the GG/MS version of Sonic 1 happened not too long before the Genesis version. Mostly because the first boss of the 8-bit version is Robotnik's vehicle without a single weapon on it, trying to ram Sonic with it. That would make it seem somewhere close to Sonic & Robotnik's first meeting, since you could say Robotnik didn't know enough about Sonic to know he needed special weaponry. The evidence is a little flimsy, yeah, but I dunno.

[doc eggfan]

1094 - Sonic '06: Lament of Innocence
1476 - Sonic 3: Eggman's Curse
1479 - Sonic Generations: Curse of Darkness
1576 - Sonic 2: The Adventure
1591 - Sonic & Knuckles: Knuckles' Revenge
1691 - Sonic 1
1698 - Sonic CD: Amy's Quest
1748 - Sonic Adventure 2: Harmony of Dissonance
1792 - Sonic 3D: Island of Blood
1797 - Sonic Adventure: Symphony of the Night
1800 - Sonic Boom: Order of Sportstapia
1917 - Sonic R: Bloodlines
1944 - Sonic Lost World: Portrait of Ruin
2035 - Sonic Heroes: Aria of Sorrow
2036 - Sonic Unleashed: Dawn of Sorrow

This post has been edited by doc eggfan: 10 December 2014 - 06:54 PM

[DigitalDuck]

doc eggfan, on 10 December 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

1094 - Sonic '06
1476 - Sonic 3
1479 - Sonic Generations
1576 - Sonic 2
1591 - Sonic & Knuckles
1691 - Sonic 1
1698 - Sonic CD
1748 - Sonic Adventure 2
1792 - Sonic 3D
1797 - Sonic Adventure
1800 - Sonic Boom
1917 - Sonic R
1944 - Sonic Lost World
2035 - Sonic Heroes
2036 - Sonic Unleashed

So Sonic Colours isn't canon then?

[doc eggfan]

gah, I knew I'd miss one

Nope, Sonic Colors: Legends, was dumped from canon by longtime series producer Koji Igarashi

[KalHal]

You might as well assume some things, like fake emeralds, and things developers don't tell you, but here's my full story of the games!

First, of course Sonic 1 would come first, as it would take around 2 brain cells to figure that out, but what version? I'd say MS/GG and MD/GS are parallel, since all the games practically have nothing to do with each other during the course of both systems life spans, with the exception of a few levels in the respective universes! Let's also say they both take place at the same time, along with everyone else's theory on Sonic CD with Sonic still retaining his S1 look, and the Japanese manual of Tails' Adventure coming before Sonic 2, so it'd make sense. Then, Sonic 2 is pieced with Sonic 3, I mean, if you pair the Ending of S2 and the beginning of S3K, it's pretty obvious, but then things start to get difficult. So, if you say Sonic 4 came out, and had Modern Sonic, but then after a few games, he reverts back to classic sonic, just because Dimps decided to attempt completely fuck the timeline. So, let's pretend, or at least pair Classic Sonic's model into Sonic 4. But, some would say AoSTH Robotnik comes after the true classics, so we'll add Mean Bean Machine after that. Still following me? I hope not, I don't want you to stress over all this shit like I have to, but let's say the Genesis version of Spinball comes immediately before that. Chaotix and 3D Blast should eventually come around, but they are interchangeable. Finally, we come to Sonic R. But for the rest of the Game Gear titles, I'll say Chaos and Triple Trouble come pieced together after Sonic 2, Tails' Skypatrol comes before Tails' Adventure, since the game is much simpler, and I can assume this is before Tails could reach full control of himself, then Labyrinth, both Drift Games, and the AoSTH Robotnik on Sonic Spinball, and Sonic Blast, and intertwining with Sonic R as well, since Blast is like 3D Blast, only 2D. So, to complete the timeline I have,

16-Bit Timeline:
- 1
- CD
- 2
- 3 & Knuckles
- 4
- Spinball
- Mean Bean Machine
- Chaotix
- 3D Blast
- R

8-Bit Timeline:
- 1
- Tails' Skypatrol
- Tails' Adventure
- 2
- Chaos
- Triple Trouble
- Labyrinth
- Drift 1 & 2
- Blast
- R

[Sir_mihael]

Oh man.. this topic reminds me of the Sonic HQ Forum days.

Anyway, might as well throw my coins into the pond. Although my logic is 'Keep it Simple'
I'm pretty sure this is the boring arse timeline that most people have though, minus my placing of SegaSonic.

SegaSonic
Sonic 1 (either 8-bit or 16-bit. The plot and outcomes are the same.)
Sonic CD
Sonic 2
Sonic 3 & Knuckles (Sonic > Knuckles)
Sonic 4 Ep 1 and 2
Knuckles Chaotix
Sonic the Fighters
Sonic 3D
Sonic R

Game Gear games are a seperate continuity, because it doesn't require an essay to justify.

I always place SegaSonic first, because why not. Fuck it.

doc eggfan, on 10 December 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

1094 - Sonic '06: Lament of Innocence
1476 - Sonic 3: Eggman's Curse
1479 - Sonic Generations: Curse of Darkness
1576 - Sonic 2: The Adventure
1591 - Sonic & Knuckles: Knuckles' Revenge
1691 - Sonic 1
1698 - Sonic CD: Amy's Quest
1748 - Sonic Adventure 2: Harmony of Dissonance
1792 - Sonic 3D: Island of Blood
1797 - Sonic Adventure: Symphony of the Night
1800 - Sonic Boom: Order of Sportstapia
1917 - Sonic R: Bloodlines
1944 - Sonic Lost World: Portrait of Ruin
2035 - Sonic Heroes: Aria of Sorrow
2036 - Sonic Unleashed: Dawn of Sorrow

>Not including 'Sonic Riders: Circle of the Moon'
See me after class.

BlackHole, on 04 December 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

Besides, Sonic 4 isn't going to finish the whole Death Egg II situation, may as well make use of Sonic the Fighters and have that be the conclusion

I actually agree with this.
Sonic 4 Episode III might never happen, wheras Sonic the Fighters provides a nice follow-on from Episode II's ominous ending.
After all, Death Egg 2 and Death Egg MKII are more or less two different ways of writing the same thing.

(Giving it the liberal 'Seven Emeralds' retcon of course à la Sonic 1 to diffuse any problems, unless you wanna throw some Fake Emerald nonsense around. It doesn't really matter anyway; It's a gameplay macguffin.)