[Machenstein]

Mr Lange, on 30 November 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

Felik, on 30 November 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Lange, you are using terms like "Occam's razor" to prove your point yet you count "I don't like Sonic 4 so it doesn't count" as a valid argument. Do you want to argue or you just want to project your opinion on everyone else?

I never argued "I don't like Sonic 4 so it doesn't count". I said "For the love of god don't count Sonic 4" as an extra part of one post, and I put it in a spoiler for a reason. If you read my posts, you would notice I did not use that in any of my actual arguments. I won't and can't argue the exclusion of Sonic 4 from the timeline even though I hate it beyond the capacity of words to describe. I suppose if I could try to argue anything against it, that would have to be the developers that made it had nothing to do with the teams that developed the original trilogy. In that sense, Sonic 4 is closer to fanon than canon.

Actually, you can. The beginning of Sonic 4 Episode Metal shows Metal Sonic in Stardust Speedway Bad Future. This can't be canon because Sonic made a Good Future for all of Little Planet at the end of Sonic CD.

This post has been edited by Machenstein: 30 November 2014 - 09:14 PM

[Blue Blood]

Machenstein, on 30 November 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

Actually, you can. The beginning of Sonic 4 Episode Metal shows Metal Sonic in Stardust Speedway Bad Future. This can't be canon because Sonic made a Good Future for all of Little Planet at the end of Sonic CD.

Since when did that definitely happen? There was a good and bad ending after all!

I think the Bad Future shown in S4 just about the only piece of actual evidence for some of the more ambiguous story elements amongst the headcanon in this topic. Sonic may well have beaten Eggman and Metal in CD, but he fell short of collecting all the Time Stones and/or destroying all the robot teleporters!

Obviously it came as a result only of laziness in the production of S4 (it's a screenshot from Generations essentially), but hey, it has implications for the canon! And if nothing else, is another reason to hate S4.

This post has been edited by Blue Blood: 30 November 2014 - 09:33 PM

[Machenstein]

The bad ending to Sonic CD shows Little Planet being chained back to the mountain after the credits. Little Planet can't be in outer space if Sonic failed to get the Time Stones and destroy the badnik generators.

[BlackHole]

Well...I have a project I'm working on related to this. I can share the timeline and the 'in-story' reason it's there...barring certain spoilers, of course.

Tails' Adventures

Spoiler

Outright said to be before Sonic and Tails met, I believe this takes place contemporarily with...

Sonic the Hedgehog (both)

Spoiler

The levels weave in and out of one another: 8-bit Green Hill goes to 16-bit Green Hill, then Sonic crosses Bridge Zone to get to Marble Zone, which sits outside Jungle Zone, which Sonic goes through to get into the newly fortified former residential Spring Yard Zone, which has an entrance into the Labyrinth Zone, etcetc.

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (8-bit)

Spoiler

Tails jumps across to South Island in order to catch a ride to go see the Little Planet.He never really sees Green Hill Zone, instead hanging around the Marble Zone because the ruins interest him and he's fearful of people due to his treatment from them prior, but one day a blue blur passes while he's wandering the Jungle Zone, a la a cutscene from Sonic Adventure. He follows, they become friendly and one day Robotnik picks him up during a raid, leading to the game...

Sonic Chaos

Spoiler

Between Sonic 2 8-bit and this game, Sonic manages to master the Spin Dash and Tails mimics him, prompting the Hedgehog to consider him a little brother outright instead of just a friend. Tails, happy by this acceptance, shows off various gizmos to Sonic, such as the Rocket Boots. Then Robotnik manages to snag the Red Chaos Emerald, cue the game.

Sonic Generations (Classic Sonic)

Spoiler

During a run through Green Hill, Sonic notices some Badniks and deals with them promptly. The Badniks were bait, however, and Sonic is drawn into the plot...

Sonic Schoolhouse

Spoiler

The people of South Island, thankful for Sonic's assistance, construct a schoolhouse in his honour, with a holographic interface of him to teach the children, though they note there's quite a few bugs in the software at the moment...

Sonic CD

Spoiler

South Island comes into view of Westside Island, allowing Sonic and Tails the opportunity to go see the Little Planet, as per Sonic 4. The games events go on, but while on the Little Planet, Sonic can't quite get used to the different gravity in order to execute a proper spindash. Tails, meanwhile, goes on his lonesome to explore the planet.

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (16-bit)

Spoiler

G.U.N. locate the Death Egg under construction, forcing an early launch when they attempt an assault. Robotnik proceeds to assault Westside Island to capture more labour to finish construction quickly while in orbit, but being the egomaniac he is gloats to Sonic about it, prompting the events of the game...

Sonic Drift and assorted spinoffs (aka those not listed on here)

Spoiler

With Sonic's heroism coming to light, many productions in his image are made on the recovering Westside Island, including cartoons and games.

Sonic Spinball

Spoiler

With the Death Egg down, Robotnik retreats to Mt. Mobius to use the resources to rebuild the Death Egg in Angel Island. Sonic and Tails hear word of Robotnik's mass Badnik production and decide to strike first, leading to the events of the game.

Sonic the Hedgehog 3

Spoiler

As said in the Japanese manual, Sonic and Tails find a relic on Westside Island's beach and learn of the Death Egg's survival and Angel Island, prompting them to immediately fly on over.

Sonic Triple Trouble

Spoiler

With the Death Egg downed again, Robotnik 'accidentally' launches the Chaos Emeralds Knuckles gave him after nicking them from Sonic in Sonic 3 to the four corners of the world with a 'misfire' of the Death Eggs weapons, prompting Sonic to go after them instead to keep them safe. This gives him time to properly rebuild the Death Egg, much quicker as well since Knuckles is also off the island. Robotnik goes after them as well, even sending a second Metal Sonic after them, if only to keep up appearances as he's discovered a much larger energy source on Angel Island...

Sonic and Knuckles

Spoiler

With the Chaos Emeralds safe, Sonic immediately returns to Angel Island. After Tails drops Sonic off in Mushroom Hill, since the Tornado can't get in close because of strange weather patterns causing turbulence, Sonic goes it alone while Tails stays with the Tornado incase the Death Egg manages a take off again as it did in Sonic 3. Cue Sonic and Knuckles (Sonic section)...

Sonic 3 and Knuckles (Knuckles Story)

Spoiler

Knuckles, angered with Robotnik's betrayal, proceeds to destroy all the obvious bases on Angel Island (the Sonic 3 portion), before deciding to relax in Mushroom Hill. However, he's attacked by a certain Badnik, kicking off the Sonic and Knuckles section.

Sonic the Hedgehog 4 Episode 1

Spoiler

Upon Westside Island, Robotnik attacks in a show of force from an E.G.G. Station in orbit. This is to distract Sonic from what remains of the Death Egg being salvaged in preparation of the Little Planet. Upon destroying the E.G.G. Station, Sonic uses the rocket to return and the Tornado, placed where Sonic would land via Tails calculations, to return to Westside Island. As Sonic does so, he notices a commotion on the Sky Sanctuary and circles until he can assist...

Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog 2

Spoiler

As Knuckles now owes Sonic his life twice over, he agrees to help Sonic deal with the remnants of Robotniks' remaining forces on Westside Island in the same way he dealt with them on Angel Island before Tails takes him back. As Sonic deals with the E.G.G. Station, Knuckles deals with the Badniks alongside Tails, since Knuckles isn't familiar with the land. Knuckles even proceeds to take out a chunk of the Death Egg that has managed to remain active. However, they all fail to notice the robot leaving the Mad Gear section of Metropolis and making a beeline for the Lost Labyrinth...

Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode Metal

Spoiler

As the Little Planet approaches, Robotnik contacts the Stardust Speedway facility and uses what power it has to get the original Metal Sonic back home and powered up, as in the game.

Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 2

Spoiler

As the Little Planet approaches, everyone is horrified by the appearance of a familiar metal skeleton around it as the salvaged Death Egg is constructed around it. Sonic and Tails immediately hop into action, Knuckles home on Angel Island, but both are followed by a familiar robot...

Sonic Labyrinth

Spoiler

Robotnik, irate and thoroughly angered by his constant failures through Sonic, decides to enact revenge. Using a robot to sneak into Sonic's resting place, he decides that death is too easy as option and instead decides to humiliate the hedgehog in the same way Sonic has humiliated him countless times: swapping out the shoes for ones that hold his feet down, he taunts Sonic and captures him as in the scene from SEGASonic the Hedgehog, taking him to one of his many island fortresses, this one known as Carnival Island that is being used as a base while Robotnik attempts to locate the Chaos Rings, before making him navigate the maze in a twisted game. When Sonic completes the mazes, however... he is immediately dumped back into a cage for Robotnik's leisure, where he meets a young squirrel named Ray.

Tails Skypatrol

Spoiler

With Sonic currently missing in action, Tails steps up to protect the island from several new bad guys whom claim Westside Island for their own.

Knuckles Chaotix

Spoiler

Knuckles, spotting Carnival Island from Angel Island, feels a familiar energy. He goes to investigate, being drawn by the Chaos Rings, before interrupting Robotnik as he tends to Espio the Chameleon. The events of the game pan out...

SEGASonic the Hedgehog

Spoiler

After Knuckles Chaotix, Mighty immediately returns to Carnival Island to locate an old friend, Ray, as he was why Mighty was there in the first place. Being captured and thrown into the same cage as the other two, the other facilities to damaged by the Chaotix to hold them, they all manage a breakout and proceed to finish off the Carnival Island base, though with the Chaos Rings gone Robotnik feels there was no more point to the base anyway.

Sonic Blast

Spoiler

Robotnik decides to shove caution to the wind and just shoot Sonic, but instead accidentally hits the Chaos Emeralds and scatters them again. Knuckles, looking for Tails to catcha ride back to Angel Island, agrees to help Sonic fight Robotnik once more.

Sonic 3D: Flickies Island

Spoiler

Calming the hell down after his revenge plot, Robotnik decides to start from scratch on Flickies Island and immediately begins constructing an army as he did on South Island. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles all head for the island to stop Robotnik, Knuckles tagging along as he still feels he owes Sonic his life.

Sonic R

Spoiler

Seemingly losing his mind again, Robotnik organizes a race with Sonic and co, but his planned courses have Sonic worried as they all seem curiously close to where he has hidden the Chaos Emeralds...

Sonic the Fighters

Spoiler

The Little Planet comes around once more, still held by the Death Egg (since Sonic 4 seems to have been abandoned). Robotni immediately pounces and uses it to construct an army, adding more modules to increase production. As the world fends off the invasion, a minor fight breaks out over the Chaos Emeralds and whom gets to deal with Robotnik...

Sonic Jam

Spoiler

Sonic, now a worldwide hero, receives a museum dedicated to his actions: the Sonic Journey Accumulation Museum. A recap on his journey up until now, he decides to have a proper holiday while Robotnik is being quiet, taking about a year off until he eventually turns up in a place called Station Square...

Of course, this is all just my own crap.

This post has been edited by BlackHole: 30 November 2014 - 09:32 PM

[Blue Blood]

Machenstein, on 30 November 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

The bad ending to Sonic CD shows Little Planet being chained back to the mountain after the credits. Little Planet can't be in outer space if Sonic failed to get the Time Stones and destroy the badnik generators.

Shows how often I bother to sit through credits sequences!

But still, if we are to treat S4 as well thought out canon absent of plot holes, then something definitely went awry in CD because of Stardust Speedway's state. Maybe the clip at the end of the bad ending is from some point way in the future, after the events of S4, caused by some crazy time travel shenanigans?

Or maybe S4 is lazy.

[BlackHole]

I always figured that it was because Sonic took off with the Time Stones and didn't leave them on Little Planet, thus undoing his time travelling actions which would have been preserved by the Time Stones otherwise. Because wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

Either that or the Time Eater forced the bad future during Generations and that stuck, despite Sonic getting the good ending.

[Machenstein]

To be fair, Sonic 4 can be assigned to a split in the timeline. In one timeline, Sonic has to deal with the events in Sonic 4 because Little Planet had a Bad Future. In the other timeline, Sonic goes straight to whatever game comes after Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

[Adamis]

We'd also have to consider that Knuckles Chaotix takes place after Sonic 4 Episode 2. Sega consider that there's only one Metal Sonic around (a mandate they gave to Archie, even), so for Chaotix to happen, Metal Sonic can't be stuck on Little Planet. And there's Triple Trouble too...

So it should be Sonic CD - Sonic 4 episode Metal - Sonic 4 Episode 2 - Sonic Triple Trouble (because Knuckles is an enemy as Metal Sonic is) - Knuckles Chaotix (Knuckles is now an enemy to Metal Sonic) (Obviously I did include all the other games in this, just the games related to my point)

Sonic's canon timeline can be messy sometimes

[ICEknight]

According to Generations, Sonic 4 features "older" Sonic and Eggman, so it must take place after Chaotix, 3D Blast and every other classic. =P

[Xeta]

I find it strange how Sonic has always been 15 or 16, and yet they try to assign drastically different designs to the "Classic" and "Modern" Sonic nowadays.

[Sodaholic]

Wow, nice work, BlackHole. You clearly put a lot of effort into that.

One thing I wanted to say to the general public here: can we please disregard anything from 1998 onward? I don't want to discourage discussion of a larger unified continuity, but I figured focusing on pre-Adventure stuff would create less obstacles in unifying things.

[DigitalDuck]

BlackHole, on 30 November 2014 - 09:31 PM, said:

Sonic the Hedgehog 3

Spoiler

As said in the Japanese manual, Sonic and Tails find a relic on Westside Island's beach and learn of the Death Egg's survival and Angel Island, prompting them to immediately fly on over.

Sonic Triple Trouble

Spoiler

With the Death Egg downed again, Robotnik 'accidentally' launches the Chaos Emeralds Knuckles gave him after nicking them from Sonic in Sonic 3 to the four corners of the world with a 'misfire' of the Death Eggs weapons, prompting Sonic to go after them instead to keep them safe. This gives him time to properly rebuild the Death Egg, much quicker as well since Knuckles is also off the island. Robotnik goes after them as well, even sending a second Metal Sonic after them, if only to keep up appearances as he's discovered a much larger energy source on Angel Island...

Sonic and Knuckles

Spoiler

With the Chaos Emeralds safe, Sonic immediately returns to Angel Island. After Tails drops Sonic off in Mushroom Hill, since the Tornado can't get in close because of strange weather patterns causing turbulence, Sonic goes it alone while Tails stays with the Tornado incase the Death Egg manages a take off again as it did in Sonic 3. Cue Sonic and Knuckles (Sonic section)...

Well, that's certainly an interesting take on things. I'd treat S3K as one continuous story, but there's no reason there couldn't be an off-screen adventure in between zones.

Sodaholic, on 30 November 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

Wow, nice work, BlackHole. You clearly put a lot of effort into that.

One thing I wanted to say to the general public here: can we please disregard anything from 1998 onward? I don't want to discourage discussion of a larger unified continuity, but I figured focusing on pre-Adventure stuff would create less obstacles in unifying things.

The thing is, when some games from 1998 onward are set within that era, it's basically an omission not to include them. If Sonic 4 is canon, it should be included. If Sonic Generations is canon, it should be included (at least as far as Classic Sonic's initial appearance goes). They would both appear between games in the Classic era.

If you're worried about it causing disagreements, then tough. There isn't a hope in hell we're going to agree on the continuity regardless of whether those two games are included or not, so I don't see what difference it really makes.

[Mr Lange]

A big problem with Triple Trouble being between Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles is as I mentioned earlier; Sonic and Knuckles shake hands at the end of Triple Trouble, signifying an alliance. Why would they immediately go back to being enemies in Sonic and Knuckles? I don't see much sense either in everyone leaving Angel Island, having an adventure elsewhere, then returning to Angel Island to finish the previous adventure, especially given how heavily it's implied that S3&K is a continuous event... in fact, the story directly says it is. Also, a second Metal Sonic? I believe someone in this thread already mentioned it's been officially confirmed that there's only one Metal Sonic, so that part of BlackHole's theory also doesn't hold up.

Adamis, on 30 November 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

Sega consider that there's only one Metal Sonic around (a mandate they gave to Archie, even), so for Chaotix to happen, Metal Sonic can't be stuck on Little Planet. And there's Triple Trouble too...

This post has been edited by Mr Lange: 01 December 2014 - 07:10 AM

[BlackHole]

Mr Lange, on 01 December 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

A big problem with Triple Trouble being between Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles is as I mentioned earlier; Sonic and Knuckles shake hands at the end of Triple Trouble, signifying an alliance. Why would they immediately go back to being enemies in Sonic and Knuckles? I don't see much sense either in everyone leaving Angel Island, having an adventure elsewhere, then returning to Angel Island to finish the previous adventure, especially given how heavily it's implied that S3&K is a continuous event... in fact, the story directly says it is.

Yeah, unfortunately I had to take some creative differences with the story there to make it fit nicely. I just made use of the need to split the two into separate cartridges and the differences there-in (that flash in Sonic 3 alone that the Death Egg disappears into? I'd make use of that as the misfiring that sets off Triple Trouble, while the Death Egg falls off screen in the momentary blindness as Sonic and Tails don't exactly look away).

As for the shaking of hands, that one's easy: Knuckles respects Sonic as a fighter, just as World War I pilots would respect the other sides' fighting prowess. That didn't stop them trying to gun the other side down. Knuckles simply felt the need to make it known while they were in neutral territory (aka, off Angel Island) and as soon as they were back on the battlefield it was back to business.

Quote

Also, a second Metal Sonic? I believe someone in this thread already mentioned it's been officially confirmed that there's only one Metal Sonic, so that part of BlackHole's theory also doesn't hold up.

Adamis, on 30 November 2014 - 10:11 PM, said:

Sega consider that there's only one Metal Sonic around (a mandate they gave to Archie, even), so for Chaotix to happen, Metal Sonic can't be stuck on Little Planet. And there's Triple Trouble too...

Yeah, another difference there, but rather then it being an outright second Metal Sonic, it's an upgraded version that gets further upgraded for a certain fight in Sky Sanctuary. If you had a good version, why drop it when it fails instead of upgrading on the design to try and make it work?

But still, I accept Triple Trouble isn't a perfect fit, but I like it there. I should also have specified these differences beforehand.

This post has been edited by BlackHole: 01 December 2014 - 11:48 AM

[Machenstein]

What was Knuckles doing inside of that cage at the end of Triple Trouble? If Eggman put him inside of that cage, that would be reason enough for Knuckles to rebel against Eggman. Unless Fang put Knuckles in the cage so Fang could sneak away with the Emeralds. Triple Trouble's bad ending does show Fang getting away with the Emeralds instead of Eggman.