[Sodaholic]

I suppose Aspect's Sonic 2 should probably be disregarded as non-canon, but I do wonder where it fits in if it is canon. The Japanese manual for STI's Sonic 2 states that game is when Sonic and Tails first met. I always thought of Aspect's S2 more fitting as a direct prequel to STI's S2, since Tails should be able to hold his own without getting kidnapped by the time he's able to engage in combat like in STI's game. Of course, it could just as easily take place after STI's game.

If not for potential conflicts in the manual backstories, this is how I'd order the games chronologically. Does anyone else think this is a fitting timeline or do you disagree?

Sonic 1 (hybrid of the Ancient and Sonic Team versions)
Sonic CD
Sonic 2 (Aspect)
Sonic 2 (STI)
Sonic & Tails 1
Sonic & Tails 2
Sonic 3
Sonic & Knuckles
Chaotix

The reason I place the two S&T games before S3K is because Knuckles appears as an antagonist in S&T2 and it wouldn't make sense for him to remain one after the events late in S3K.

[E-122-Psi]

I kinda figured the whole 'Knuckles keeps getting tricked by Eggman' running gag might have been to excuse Triple Trouble's plot.

[Sid Starkiller]

I've always believed that none of the 8-bit games were canon. So my version is much simpler:

Sonic 1
Sonic CD
Sonic 2
Sonic 3K
Chaotix

Question is: Should 3D Blast between S3K and Chaotix, or after Chaotix?

[winterhell]

I Like to think that Sonic (and Tails) were busy on Flickies' Island during the events of Carnival Island, though Robotnik was at both places during normal bosses so it couldnt happen.
Sonic 3D was probably after the events of Chaotix. As per the Japanese story, Chaotix happened couple of months after S&K so it would be relatively soon, and on the Western, there was a grand opening for the carnival and Robotnik had to be stopped before that. Its implied that S&T were invited as guests, thus appearing after the events.

Then after the destruction of Metal Sonic KAI, Robotnik didnt have time to rebuild another (like in the past CD, S2, S&K and Chaotix games) so he went for the quick fix of the Flickies in 3D Blast.
Since they were already together from the afterparty, Sonic Tails and Knuckles went to straighten things up.

And after that you get X-Treme?
Where does Spinball fit in the picture? It couldn't be between S2 and S3 since only couple of weeks went by. Then again if Robotnik can rebuild in a matter of weeks, then it could be during the time Knuckles was busy with the Egg Robo after Sonic's campaign.

This post has been edited by winterhell: 30 November 2014 - 02:45 AM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

The canon appears to be:

Sonic The Hedgehog (MD version)
Sonic CD ("See you next game!" Tails sign, Sonic-alone, artistic style, etc.)
Sonic The Hedgehog 2 (MD)
Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
Sonic 4 (said to take place shortly after S3&K whereby Sonic goes it alone)
Knuckles Chaotix (takes place a few months after S3&K)
Sonic 3D Blast: Flickies Island
Sonic R
Sonic Adventure

And so forth.

However, if a game doesn't defy the laws of the game universe, then presumably it can be counted as canon. Sonic 1 (SMS) is one of these games - it does nothing to retcon or change events and can be placed before or after the Mega Drive version.

Spinball however, does defy the laws of the universe. There's nods to characters which don't exist in the game universe, all the Chaos Emeralds are blue, and there's tonnes of them scattered about. Same goes for Mean Bean Machine which is set in the AoSTH universe.

[Polish Pete]

Here's how I think the Genesis era goes:
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
Sonic 3&K
SegaSonic/Spinball/Labyrinth - I see it as three different interpretations of one adventure
Chaotix/Sonic 3D Blast - I like to think both happen on the same island, since in both games we're dealing with giant warp rings. It could also explain why Knuckles was in Sonic 3D and why Sonic and Tails were in Chaotix. But then again, Sonic Team doesn't really consider Chaotix to be canon, from what I've heard.
Sonic CD - I'm putting it here since Metal Sonic gets stuck on the Little Planet until Sonic 4: Episode Metal
Tails' Skypatrol, Tails Adventure - Both happen at the same time as Sonic CD, which explains Tails' absence in that game
Some time passes, the characters change their looks
Sonic 4
(I'm not putting the 8-bit Sonic 1, Sonic 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Triple Trouble and Sonic Blast here because for me they're like 8-bit representations of the original Genesis games.)

This post has been edited by Polish Pete: 30 November 2014 - 10:46 AM

[Mr Lange]

I've started figuring out a timeline for the games. I'm not going to say it all yet but there's a couple things I feel should be said here.

A lot of people think CD is between Sonic 1 and 2, largely because of the spindash and absence of Tails. I'm pretty much convinced however that CD takes place after 3&K, and the spindash should be considered retconned to its final version. The addition of the peelout as a new ability and Metal Sonic being the greatest robot Sonic that Eggman created are the biggest signs that CD is post 3&K, considering Mecha Sonic being a noticeably inferior design that was killed and left dead in S&K, whereas Metal Sonic was revived and upgraded and reused well after its conception. Amy's appearance is another sign, since both her and Metal Sonic only reappear in games that are undoubtedly post 3&K.

Polish Pete, on 30 November 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Chaotix/Sonic 3D Blast - I like to think both happen on the same island, since in both games we're dealing with giant warp rings. It could also explain why Knuckles was in Sonic 3D and why Sonic and Tails were in Chaotix.
Sonic CD - I'm putting it here since Metal Sonic gets stuck on the Little Planet until Sonic 4: Episode Metal

I'm positive Chaotix is a sequel to CD. Badniks from CD return "upgraded". Metal Sonic was likely created in CD's plot, and Metal Sonic not only returns in Chaotix, but he achieves a new, far more powerful form, suggesting some kind of growth.

Sodaholic, on 29 November 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

The reason I place the two S&T games before S3K is because Knuckles appears as an antagonist in S&T2 and it wouldn't make sense for him to remain one after the events late in S3K.

Are you forgetting the part where Sonic and Knuckles are frenemies, and Knuckles is always tricked by Eggman?
Did you forget the ending of S&T2, where Sonic and Knuckles shake hands?
By your logic, having become allies at the end of S&T2, it would make no sense for Knuckles to be an antagonist in 3&K.
On that note, I place S&T2 on the far end of the timeline. The only games that would come after it are spinoffs; Drift 2 and Fighters. S&T2 features Knuckles, Metal Sonic, the introduction of Fang (who only reappears in aforementioned spinoffs that don't fit anywhere except the end of the timeline), and Sonic has the most advanced moveset in the entire legacy series.

Spoiler

Also, for the love of god, Sonic 4 doesn't count. Please stop trying to fit it into the legacy timeline, let alone acknowledge it exists. Sonic 4 is a massive insult, and they didn't give two flying fucks about the series' canon when they shat it out and tried to call it a real Sonic game.

This post has been edited by Mr Lange: 30 November 2014 - 05:01 AM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Mr Lange, on 30 November 2014 - 05:00 AM, said:

I've started figuring out a timeline for the games. I'm not going to say it all yet but there's a couple things I feel should be said here.

A lot of people think CD is between Sonic 1 and 2, largely because of the spindash and absence of Tails. I'm pretty much convinced however that CD takes place after 3&K, and the spindash should be considered retconned to its final version. The addition of the peelout as a new ability and Metal Sonic being the greatest robot Sonic that Eggman created are the biggest signs that CD is post 3&K, considering Mecha Sonic being a noticeably inferior design that was killed and left dead in S&K, whereas Metal Sonic was revived and upgraded and reused well after its conception. Amy's appearance is another sign, since both her and Metal Sonic only reappear in games that are undoubtedly post 3&K.

Spoiler

Also, for the love of god, Sonic 4 doesn't count. Please stop trying to fit it into the legacy timeline, let alone acknowledge it exists. Sonic 4 is a massive insult, and they didn't give two flying fucks about the series' canon when they shat it out and tried to call it a real Sonic game.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it non-canon. Lots of people don't like Star Wars Episode I, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful to the overall plot of the films.

I'm pretty sure as far as it's concerned Sonic CD fits between 1 & 2. The use of Metal Sonic and then Eggman using an inferior design can be explained by Metal Sonic being left on Little Planet, and then him testing the new proto design Silver Sonic, which eventually became Mecha Sonic - which ended up being more successful than Metal Sonic in S3&K, becoming Super Mecha Sonic (though still failing).

You don't have to group the Metal Sonic games together. Characters can be absent from games for periods and reappear every so often. Sonic 4 explains Metal Sonic's absence. Team Chaotix appear in Sonic Heroes but this doesn't mean it happens right after Knuckles Chaotix, for example.

Movesets like the Super Peel-Out can't be argued to change the position of the game, as Sonic's moveset has changed back and forth many times over the years. The fact he never uses it in the future games like the 3D ones or the Advance series has to be acknowledged too.

Also, you can only argue that Amy only appears after Sonic 3 & Knuckles if you move Sonic CD to after Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I can argue Amy appears before S3&K by placing it before Sonic 2, so really this is no evidence at all.

Lastly, Sonic 4's plot has it taking place straight after 4.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 30 November 2014 - 05:30 AM

[winterhell]

Since Sonic 2, Tails is basically in all Sonic games, even in Unleashed. It seems odd that its not in CD if the game takes place after S&K, even after CD was released a years after the introduction of the character. There is no Super Sonic in CD as well. Then again you can argue that its an alternative timeline from the main series.

Also the first mechanical Sonic is supposed to be the one from CD since its made to match him by appearance and stuff.
Silver and Mecha would come after that. Mecha is pretty evil imho and can even operate heavy machinery.

The whole CD thing being after S&K started with the Sonic 4 guys claiming CD is a prequel to 4 as a recap introduction for Metal Sonic. Prequel doesnt mean 'immediate prequel' but something that happened in the past. Same people who were unaware that S3 and S&K are related as a whole game S3K started spreading rumours about CD being direct prequel to Ep 1 or even Ep 2.

This post has been edited by winterhell: 30 November 2014 - 05:44 AM

[Mr Lange]

SpeedStarTMQ, on 30 November 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure as far as it's concerned Sonic CD fits between 1 & 2. The use of Metal Sonic and then Eggman using an inferior design can be explained by Metal Sonic being left on Little Planet, and then him testing the new proto design Silver Sonic, which eventually became Mecha Sonic - which ended up being more successful than Metal Sonic in S3&K, becoming Super Mecha Sonic (though still failing).

I'd say Occam's razor applies here. It takes more assumptions to hold that theory together.
Mecha Sonic did attain a super form, but the rest of his design was clunky. It relied on more mechanical pieces and a cruder form of mimicking Sonic's abilities, and failed to challenge Sonic as well as Metal did.
While Metal Sonic never achieves a super form like Sonic, it can make use of power sources like the emeralds and achieve different powerful forms that even changes its shape. Metal Sonic matches Sonic's speed and abilities, and Eggman seems to always return to using Metal Sonic; the same cannot be said about the other robot Sonics, which died after one or two uses and had noticeably inferior designs. It makes more sense that there was a progression in which Eggman improved his robot Sonic design until settling on Metal Sonic. Mecha > Silver, and Metal > Mecha.

SpeedStarTMQ, on 30 November 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Movesets like the Super Peel-Out can't be argued to change the position of the game, as Sonic's moveset has changed back and forth many times over the years. The fact he never uses it in the future games like the 3D ones or the Advance series has to be acknowledged too.

The peelout by itself doesn't change the position of a game. It's just one of multiple clues that help figure things out. There are moves that only appeared once, like the instashield, which complicate things a bit. However with the peelout having multiple appearances, there's more consistency to work from in trying to solve the timeline, even if it is absent in some subsequent games. As for the 3D games and Advance, I'm speaking strictly about the legacy games and their timeline; given the reboot of the series that was Sonic Adventure, and the negligence of established elements and features from the legacy era after this reboot, it's almost absurd to try and regard those games when attempting to solve the legacy timeline. (This is a reason I discount Sonic 4 here.)

SpeedStarTMQ, on 30 November 2014 - 05:25 AM, said:

Also, you can only argue that Amy only appears after Sonic 3 & Knuckles if you move Sonic CD to after Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I can argue Amy appears before S3&K by placing it before Sonic 2, so really this is no evidence at all.

You missed the part where Amy's appearances have context; given that Amy AND Metal Sonic only appear in post 3&K games, it makes a bit more sense for CD to be the start of a progression post 3&K instead of their appearances having a huge gap (with their appearances and the connection between CD and Chaotix), and that also leaves the plot inconsistency of Mecha Sonic being created after Metal Sonic.

winterhell, on 30 November 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Since Sonic 2, Tails is basically in all Sonic games, even in Unleashed. It seems odd that its not in CD if the game takes place after S&K, even after CD was released a years after the introduction of the character. There is no Super Sonic in CD as well. Then again you can argue that its an alternative timeline from the main series.

It's not a stretch that Tails could be absent for one of Sonic's adventures.

winterhell, on 30 November 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Also the first mechanical Sonic is supposed to be the one from CD since its made to match him by appearance and stuff.
Silver and Mecha would come after that. Mecha is pretty evil imho and can even operate heavy machinery.

As said above, Metal Sonic is the most "perfect" and most capable robot Sonic. The designs show a progression in quality given their appearances and abilities.

winterhell, on 30 November 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

The whole CD thing being after S&K started with the Sonic 4 guys claiming CD is a prequel to 4 as a recap introduction for Metal Sonic. Prequel doesnt mean 'immediate prequel' but something that happened in the past. Same people who were unaware that S3 and S&K are related as a whole game S3K started spreading rumours about CD being direct prequel to Ep 1 or even Ep 2.

My theory has nothing to do with Sonic 4. As I said I don't count it for squat anyway.

This post has been edited by Mr Lange: 30 November 2014 - 05:56 AM

[big smile]

Oshima said Sonic CD was made as a new version of Sonic 1, so it probably comes after Sonic 1, as at the point of creation, he wasn't thinking about Sonic 2. There was also a UK sticker book that stated that Metal Sonic was built between Sonic 1 and Sonic 2. Obviously, that's not as good as a Japanese source, but I emailed the publishers and they said all the facts came from Sega.

In Sonic & Tails 2, Knuckles is described as a stranger, which suggests that the game is in a separate universe. Iizuka said in an interview that he didn't want to include the Game Gear games in Sonic Generations, which could be a sign that he doesn't consider them part of the main storyline.

In my younger days, I used to love working out a timeline for the Sonic games, mainly because there are so many interesting clues and fragments that hint at how they all connect together.
However, after having some of my questions answered by Iizuka at the Sonic Boom events, it's clear that Sonic Team don't pay too much attention to timeline. There is an order, but it's quite fluid and while Sonic Team do give it some thought, they don't seem that bothered about it. I think part of the issue is that Shiro Maekawa was responsible for many of the stories between Sonic Adventure to Sonic Riders:ZG. After leaving, different people have worked on the stories, so the continuity you get from one person overseeing everything becomes harder to maintain.

This post has been edited by big smile: 30 November 2014 - 05:47 AM

[winterhell]

How about this, Amy is not present in S2 and S3K since Sonic actually tries to get away from her and flew with the Tornado to different islands altogether. Remember, she doesn't manage to be constantly by Sonic's side even in the Adventure and later games, even though she is desperate. How would she go to the Angel Island and how would she know Sonic is there in the first place?

As for the Peelout and Insta Shield being dropped in later games- the peelout takes time to charge and you are much more vulnerable with it so Sonic decided not to use it anymore. The Insta Shield gets a bit redundant as well when you have the invincible homing attack in every game since Adventure.

[Mr Lange]

winterhell, on 30 November 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

How about this, Amy is not present in S2 and S3K since Sonic actually tries to get away from her and flew with the Tornado to different islands altogether. Remember, she doesn't manage to be constantly by Sonic's side even in the Adventure and later games, even though she is desperate. How would she go to the Angel Island and how would she know Sonic is there in the first place?

That's very possible; the alternative I said above though makes a lot more sense to me.

winterhell, on 30 November 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

As for the Peelout and Insta Shield being dropped in later games- the peelout takes time to charge and you are much more vulnerable with it so Sonic decided not to use it anymore. The Insta Shield gets a bit redundant as well when you have the invincible homing attack in every game since Adventure.

Uh... Sonic "deciding not to use it anymore" is not a very stable point to work with here. First of all, the peelout has a much greater boost than the spindash giving it worthwhile utility. Also, it improves in S&T2, giving him invincibility upon use. This also indicates a progression from CD into S&T 1 and 2.
The homing attack is not invincible. There's even enemies that take advantage of this weakness.

[Xilla]

I was actually thinking recently: Where in the classic series are Sonic and Tails plucked out of time for Generations?

I assume that it's sometime after 3K and before 3D for Sonic, since he attempts the homing attack after seeing Modern use it and as for Tails, he could come from anywhere after 2, seeing as he's already familiar with Robotnik.

Classic Robotnik should be from 2, the whole "Nobody calls me THAT anymore" regarding his name change yet still calling himself Robotnik in SA1 can be explained away as him simply disassociating from his future self after his plan backfires, yet Sonic remembers it and teases him in SA1 about it, leading to Robotnik giving in and using it as a nickname - remembering it was the code name of the Wing Fortress anyway!

[Felik]

If we only consider information given in the games and omit manuals, sites and other exterior sources of information we'd get this:

Sonic 1 MD and SMS
Sonic CD
Sonic 2
Sonic 3&K
Sonic 4 ep 1 & 2
Chaotix
Fighters
-
-
-
Generations

Other Master system games and 3D Blast - somewhere after Sonic 3&K. SegaSonic is probably somewhere before Sonic 2, can even be before Sonic 1. Tails Adventure is before Sonic 2. Tails Skypatrol can be anywhere.
I consider games which have a "proper" introduction of certain character to be the first of the games which have that character (Sonic 3 for Knux, Knuckles Chaotix for Chaotix, etc) except for Tails since Tails Adventure indicates that it happens before Tails met Sonic. If Knuckles in Sonic 2 exists then it is somewhere after Sonic 3&K.
Sonic Spinball and Mean Bean Machine are set in different universe.

So approximate chronological list would look like this:

Tails Adventure
SegaSonic
Sonic 1 MD and SMS
Sonic Labyrinth
Sonic CD
Sonic 2
Sonic 3&K
Tails Skypatrol
Sonic 4 ep 1 & 2
Sonic Drift
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Blast
Sonic 2 8-bit
Sonic Chaos
Triple Trouble
Sonic Drift 2
Chaotix
Fighters
-
-
-
Generations

I'm not very comfortable with putting Sonic 4 anywhere on this list due to number of reasons but this is the only place it would fit.

Lange, you are using terms like "Occam's razor" to prove your point yet you count "I don't like Sonic 4 so it doesn't count" as a valid argument. Do you want to argue or you just want to project your opinion on everyone else?

This post has been edited by Felik: 30 November 2014 - 07:16 AM