[sonicblur]

ICEknight, on 18 October 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

Awesome video and a really interesting read! I don't know what SEGA is waiting for, quite honestly.

Regarding the new spheres:
-I feel that, perhaps, having a fixed teleportation order (rather then random) could make things a bit more fair when trying to create a strategy to master the stages.
-In order to speed things up for the player, perhaps the green spheres could also have the ability to transform in groups when surrounded by red spheres, like this:

I agree with everything ICEknight said here. Especially the green sphere comment. I never even knew you could box around spheres to turn them all to rings until a couple years ago. This would reward and encourage players to use that strategy.

[E-122-Psi]

I'm intrigued by the idea of the special stages becoming a more intricate puzzle where more stipulations and objects appear the more you progress. Something like that might have given the Blue Sphere mode more longevity.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 18 October 2014 - 12:45 PM

[Black Squirrel]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say green spheres is an extra layer of complexity that Sonic 3&K probably doesn't need to have. The "red is bad, blue is good" thing is fairly simple* - sticking in green and pink and whatever seems a bit excessive to me (particularly when you consider half that generation couldn't get the "go around the outside" thing).

I do think there is a case for generating more interesting designs for the S&K + Sonic 1 mode though. Like bigger maps where the patterns are generated in smarter ways, that sort of thing.

I'm also concious these design choices don't always work out well for the colourblind. Also fun fact: IIRC S&K's special stages still work out with monochrome televisions which still weren't uncommon in 1994!


*except when you immediately assume Knuckles needs to get red spheres, not blue. I can't be the only one who first thought that.

[Tiddles]

Love the Blue Sphere additions, although it looks like the pink sphere could be kind of a flow breaker at high speed - but it's probably better than shooting out of the other side way too fast to figure anything out. I also tend to agree with ICEknight's idea about a fixed destination. Out of curiosity, do you think your improved ring box pathing algorithm or something like it would be possible given the original CPU and memory constraints? I'm almost afraid to ask since I'll feel like I have to do it, but the S&K version's issues are kind of irritating. Do you happen to know any of the particular issues around the Sonic 3 implementation that might have led to the change between versions?

Nice to see the odd Completism in there of course, even if they're mostly logical improvements rather than anything I can take credit for! The Knuckles intro is really interesting - I had the idea of doing something like that early on, but I couldn't really make it work, at least not with the skills and tools I was working with then (and I don't have much ambition to revisit it.) My first idea was actually to have it take place on the beach, until I realised that it'd be nonsense storyline-wise without some serious graphical changes. It'd be really interesting to see what you'd do with the alternate zone transitions - I know my Mushroom Valley to Sandopolis isn't super popular, but hey, I think it worked out OK.

The technical discussion was really interesting - with all our fancypants modern technology, even in more limited mobile devices, it's weird to think that zone sizes and transitions are still a challenge. This is where the attention to detail put into these remakes really shines - they never feel different or compromised because you always find a way to make things feel right. I suspect plenty of your greatest achievements in these games are things we'll never notice because they just work, where they'd feel subtly wrong in a less well constructed version (or less subtly in the case of Sonic Genesis).

Like everyone else, I really hope you guys get to make this happen - the proof of concept looks great and I'm sure the final product would be amazing as usual. And happy birthday to my second favourite half of my favourite game, of course.

This post has been edited by Tiddles: 18 October 2014 - 01:41 PM

[E-122-Psi]

Black Squirrel, on 18 October 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say green spheres is an extra layer of complexity that Sonic 3&K probably doesn't need to have. The "red is bad, blue is good" thing is fairly simple* - sticking in green and pink and whatever seems a bit excessive to me (particularly when you consider half that generation couldn't get the "go around the outside" thing).

I do think there is a case for generating more interesting designs for the S&K + Sonic 1 mode though. Like bigger maps where the patterns are generated in smarter ways, that sort of thing.

I'm also concious these design choices don't always work out well for the colourblind. Also fun fact: IIRC S&K's special stages still work out with monochrome televisions which still weren't uncommon in 1994!


*except when you immediately assume Knuckles needs to get red spheres, not blue. I can't be the only one who first thought that.

I agree for the standard special stages, which are hard as is and don't run in a linear fashion for people to get used to the difficulty curve as much (if you lose the first stage, you still go to the second one next regardless). Blue Sphere is a more challenging marathon for those who are accustomed to the challenge in the first place, especially in a 10000 plus zones, so adding more stipulations and complexities would work as well. I prefer it over more repetitive 'cheap' difficulty anyway, like the damn thing PAUSING EVERYTIME YOU HIT A SPHERE.

*I think I remember thinking that before, though went on a whim and hit a blue sphere first to be safe.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 18 October 2014 - 01:25 PM

[DigitalDuck]

Tiddles, on 18 October 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

Love the Blue Sphere additions, although it looks like the pink sphere could be kind of a flow breaker at high speed - but it's probably better than shooting out of the other side way too fast to figure anything out. I also tend to agree with IceKnight's idea about a fixed destination.

Yeah, I like the additions, but wouldn't like to see randomness involved.

The new spheres remind me of Q*Bert more than anything else - maybe the next logical step is to include enemies?

[E-122-Psi]

Is it okay I've put this on the SEGA board? (I know someone's already revealed it on SSMB).

[Mykonos]

I'm crossing my fingers that someday SEGA will be able to let this happen because that was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen

EDIT: echoing Gene, I bought CD pretty much everywhere I could and I bought Sonic 1/2 iOS. I will buy those wherever they wind up next and I would buy this wherever it wound up

This post has been edited by Mykonos: 18 October 2014 - 02:15 PM

[Machenstein]

I always felt the color of the spheres was suppose to be based on the three main characters. I guess that won't be the case unless you plan to include Amy and Vector as playable characters. :V

[DigitalDuck]

Machenstein, on 18 October 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I always felt the color of the spheres was suppose to be based on the three main characters. I guess that won't be the case unless you plan to include Amy and Vector as playable characters. :V

Sure, if you're being selective and ignoring the silver bumpers.

[You-Are-Pwned]

I noticed a funny thing:


Nonetheless, I'm very happy about it, even if it never gets released. Thanks for a detailed blog post and explanation, too. As a fan of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, I appreciate this a lot.

[Jen]

Beautiful work, Taxman and Stealth; thanks for sharing it with us.

GeneHF, on 18 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

My money is on the table waiting for you SEGA. I own multiple copies of the Sonic CD 2011 port and would happily slapped down for Sonic 1-3 2012/2014.

Yep, same here. I bought CD on XBox 360, Steam, and my recently acquired Android phone (which, obviously, I also have Sonic 1 and 2 for - they were the first two apps I downloaded on the phone, in fact).

I can't believe it's been 20 years today since Sonic & Knuckles' release though, bloody hell; it was actually released on my little brother's 5th birthday, which makes me feel quite old =P Sonic 3 & Knuckles has been my favourite game ever since 1994, so I'd love to see this get greenlit so much - a portable, enhanced version of what I consider to be the finest video game ever made? Yes fucking please.

[Machenstein]

DigitalDuck, on 18 October 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

Machenstein, on 18 October 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I always felt the color of the spheres was suppose to be based on the three main characters. I guess that won't be the case unless you plan to include Amy and Vector as playable characters. :V

Sure, if you're being selective and ignoring the silver bumpers.

Clearly those were based on Robotnik. :I

[.Luke]

What particularly interested me is how you and Stealth got the special stages to work, Taxman. I had always wondered, sometimes furiously, what Sonic Team did to fake a 3D sphere like this on the Genesis, and you guys go into great detail explaining not only how it worked, but how you improved it in a very impressive way. That was a glorious read, and gives me a lot to think about for my own 2D projects.

I seriously hope that you guys eventually get the chance to take that proof-of-concept somewhere in an official capacity, the footage of this thing in action is amazing. It's the best way to celebrate and remember this classic on its anniversary.

[E-122-Psi]

Machenstein, on 18 October 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

I always felt the color of the spheres was suppose to be based on the three main characters. I guess that won't be the case unless you plan to include Amy and Vector as playable characters. :V

Should they need the resources... *cough COUGH*

Hey, a guy can dream, can't he? :P