[Josh]

W.A.C., on 17 August 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

Dark Sonic, on 17 August 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Compared to Sonic 2, you have much more control over turning super. At least it required a double jump, and if you have a shield active it doesn't turn on.

It's not too bad with Sonic, but damn is it annoying with Tails and Knuckles.

Dark Sonic, on 17 August 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

And I love how, not only did Sonic team not whip up new Tails sprites (well, they made a few new ones to replace the old ones), but whenever a fan game exists it's extremely rare to see a new sprite set for Tails.

I guess a lot of Sonic fans are either content with Tails' inconsistent art direction or they're lazy. Maybe a bit of both.

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

The Tails sprites never really bugged me. I'm not all that visual of a person. Of course I could tell that they were VERY similar to Sonic 2, but to be honest I slightly preferred the character sprites in that game, anyway.

Art inconsistencies in games tend to bug the fuck out of me, but I'm a very visual person who is extremely OCD. I made a mockup of what Tails might've looked like if Sonic 3 had a more consistent art direction.



There are still some art inconsistencies with my mockup (like one of his fucking gloves), but I think I did a decent job. Also worth mentioning I love the art direction to S3&K except for the art inconsistencies with Tails, so that aspect of the graphics just sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

As mentioned, you did have at least MORE control over turning Super. And the lack thereof is what inspired Tiddles to start work on Sonic 3 Complete, so I guess it was ultimately a good thing!

That was easily the best change Sonic 3 Complete did to the game. I don't understand why Sonic Team didn't try to do something like that with the original game. It would've been a really nice addition, especially with Tails considering how his flickies can make one of the bosses in Death Egg Act 2 much harder than it needed to be.

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

As for the time limit, yeah, that's probably one of those things that I don't even normally think about, I'm so used to it. But I definitely remember having to deal with Time Overs in, say, Carnival Night act 2. Much like lives are today, it was probably becoming an anachronism, especially considering how huge the acts are.

The time limit made more sense in a game like Sonic 1 since the levels were much smaller and there was far less emphasis on exploration, but not so much in S3&K. Definitely an aspect of the game's design I do not like at all. At least the original version of Sonic CD would reset the clock to five minutes remaining when you did time travel past the five minutes mark.

I dig the Tails art! And yeah, maybe both of those issues were kind of related to the fact that this was the third in a series, and it had conventions to stick to. One was that you'd die if you took more than 10 minutes. Another was that the game was fully playable with a single button. I'm not saying that means these aren't problems, quite the opposite.

I never noticed that about Sonic CD, though! I feel like there are probably a lot of little things I don't know about that one.

nesboy43, on 17 August 2014 - 02:15 PM, said:

Great video, but a few major things were missing. How could you not mention the soundtrack at all? It's probably the best game soundtrack ever. Also the bosses and enemies themselves aren't discussed. Controls and physics that are expertly done are another very important part.

Other than that though you explain what makes the game so amazing. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is my favorite game as well. What is the advantage to Sonic 3 complete? I have an everdrive but have never played it.

As I'm not that visual of a person, I'm also not that... musical of a person? I guess I'd say I'm not much of an artist when it comes to that stuff. I do love the music, but I didn't really know if I could do it justice in explaining exactly WHY it's good. Plus, tons of people have covered the Michael Jackson stuff. Beyond that, yeah, as mentioned, I could do WAY more videos about the depth of Sonic 3.

Actually, considering how many people don't seem to know much about Sonic 3 Complete, I wonder if Tiddles would be okay with me doing a video on some of the major changes that hack brings sometime? I mean, the changelog is HUGE and kind of intimidating. That's not a bad thing; it's got a good reason to be so long and detailed. But there's a lot more to it than people might see on the surface, y'know?

This post has been edited by Josh: 17 August 2014 - 11:25 PM

[Flygon]

I could dig more videos, myself. S&K Collection was a big part of my childhood!

[W.A.C.]

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

I dig the Tails art!

Thanks for the compliment.

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

And yeah, maybe both of those issues were kind of related to the fact that this was the third in a series, and it had conventions to stick to. One was that you'd die if you took more than 10 minutes. Another was that the game was fully playable with a single button. I'm not saying that means these aren't problems, quite the opposite.

They could have had it where pressing up and jump could turn yourself super as a way to keep the one button convention consistent, but going the route Sonic 3 Complete went would've easily been the best way to pull it off without sacrificing much in the game's simplistic controls. As for keeping the time limit the way it was in Sonic 1 and 2, I agree they probably wanted to keep it that way for tradition sake but it was certainly a questionable design choice.

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

I never noticed that about Sonic CD, though! I feel like there are probably a lot of little things I don't know about that one.

For whatever reason, that aspect of the time limit was changed in the remastered version to where it never sets back unless you get a time over which is really annoying. So that might be why you never noticed that.

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 18 August 2014 - 03:17 AM

[Tiddles]

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Actually, considering how many people don't seem to know much about Sonic 3 Complete, I wonder if Tiddles would be okay with me doing a video on some of the major changes that hack brings sometime? I mean, the changelog is HUGE and kind of intimidating. That's not a bad thing; it's got a good reason to be so long and detailed. But there's a lot more to it than people might see on the surface, y'know?

It's certainly OK by me. One thing I do find (as I mentioned in the S3C topic recently) is that there's a lot of misunderstanding about exactly what the options do and how they interact, so if you do decide to do it, I'd be happy to review for nitpicky correctness before publication if you wanted, to make sure my terse descriptions haven't caused any more confusion than necessary.

Great video by the way, neatly emphasises a lot of the things S3&K has going for it. The length and level design is a really interesting point, because it also ends up giving rise to many of the criticisms levelled against the game. Marble Garden, Carnival Night and Sandopolis dragging are common complaints, but the other side of this is the criticism that Sonic 3 (alone) feels short compared to Sonic 2 - and it kind of does, but by the time you take into account the extra zone length and bosses, there probably isn't much less gameplay. And that sort of goes back to your point about variety, I suppose - differences between acts aside, the scenery doesn't change as quickly, and maybe that contributes to some of the zones feeling like they drag to some people.

It's a bit strange that S&K alone didn't seem to suffer from the length complaint in the same way when it's the shorter of the halves. Perhaps the extra exploration opportunities afforded by Knuckles made it seem to have more longevity. Or perhaps it's just having to do it in one sitting without lockon, or the extra possibilities lockon gave.

It's that part about finally understanding what the extra blocked off areas were for that was really one of the big elements that kept my interest. The end of Launch Base is my favourite one - as Sonic or Tails, you can go fast enough to roll high off the last curve before the boss, where you'll find a ring monitor, but more importantly, behind a solid pipe... a starpost. The idea that there might be another route above the boss of the final zone was pretty intriguing! I like worlds and stories that give the impression there's more to it than you can see at a glance, and the unfinished areas in part one really delivered there, one way or another.

[Josh]

Tiddles, on 18 August 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Josh, on 17 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

Actually, considering how many people don't seem to know much about Sonic 3 Complete, I wonder if Tiddles would be okay with me doing a video on some of the major changes that hack brings sometime? I mean, the changelog is HUGE and kind of intimidating. That's not a bad thing; it's got a good reason to be so long and detailed. But there's a lot more to it than people might see on the surface, y'know?

It's certainly OK by me. One thing I do find (as I mentioned in the S3C topic recently) is that there's a lot of misunderstanding about exactly what the options do and how they interact, so if you do decide to do it, I'd be happy to review for nitpicky correctness before publication if you wanted, to make sure my terse descriptions haven't caused any more confusion than necessary.

No problem! I'll be happy to have the opportunity to let you check it over if I make a video like that.

I'd say you're right about Sonic 3 vs. Sonic & Knuckles length complaints. Sonic & Tails played the same stages, Knuckles has his own paths, no save system. But I'd also bet that most people who have S&K also had S3 back in the day. I met plenty of kids who had Sonic 3 but not S&K, but I never met anyone personally who had S&K without S3.

Actually, as late as my Sophomore year in 2004, I remember letting one of my friends borrow Sonic & Knuckles. He had Compilation and 3, but had never even heard of this one. He got his Genesis out of mothballs, and it absolutely blew his mind how awesome it was.

[Uberham]

I has S&K without S3 for ages.

S3 was almost impossible to find for a decent price in Sheffield back in the day.