[Meat Miracle]

360, on 22 July 2014 - 11:51 PM, said:

The spike in difficulty is ridiculous for stage two.

Pretty much all the levels are way more difficult, bar Emerald Hill. If anything, Emerald Hill is a bit too easy.
The only difficult parts in Chemical Plant is the part in act 2 where you have to platform above the water. It forces you to take things slower, which is necessary for all the rest of the game. Still odd for a speedway level to finish off with slow paced platforming, but to be fair you can skip all of that.

In retrospect did any other zone really allow for speeding around, other than Chemical Plant?

[Dark Sonic]

GT Koopa, on 23 July 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Master Emerald, on 23 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Sonic 2 is a weird game even on it's 8-bit iteration. I mean, starting with Underground zone...? Wtf.

Didn't Retro deduce in another recent thread that the order could have been originally:

Green Hills Zone
Sky High Zone
Aqua Lake Zone
Underground Zone
Gimmick Mt. Zone
Scrambled Egg Zone
Crystal Egg Zone

It is better flowed thematically. But they changed it due to either Green Hills was too hard/Underground too easy or they didn't want to show reused tiles in different zones so close together?

Unfortunately Underground Zone was a literal hell in the GG version due to that fucking boss.

[doc eggfan]

With Neo Green Hill/Aquatic Ruin late in the level numbering system, can we make the big assumption that if it was intended to appear later in the game it could have been themed similarly to Sky Sanctuary?

[Dark Sonic]

doc eggfan, on 23 July 2014 - 08:50 PM, said:

With Neo Green Hill/Aquatic Ruin late in the level numbering system, can we make the big assumption that if it was intended to appear later in the game it could have been themed similarly to Sky Sanctuary?

Ya but Sky Sanctuary made sense because it was close to the Death Egg launching and it was a vertical level. Aquatic Ruin was just... water Marble zone.

[Andrew75]

For me chemical plant zone always felt like a kind of Star light zone type deal ( with the way speed and platforming sections were done )

[Xilla]

GT Koopa, on 23 July 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Master Emerald, on 23 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Sonic 2 is a weird game even on it's 8-bit iteration. I mean, starting with Underground zone...? Wtf.

Didn't Retro deduce in another recent thread that the order could have been originally:

Green Hills Zone
Sky High Zone
Aqua Lake Zone
Underground Zone
Gimmick Mt. Zone
Scrambled Egg Zone
Crystal Egg Zone

It is better flowed thematically. But they changed it due to either Green Hills was too hard/Underground too easy or they didn't want to show reused tiles in different zones so close together?

I thought Green Hills was pretty straight forward, the only really difficult part was the constant leap of faiths in Act 3. I'm guessing from the sudden difficulty spike that they were a late addition.

[Ashura96]

So yeah, I'm surprised there's hardly been a mention of the two methods of bypassing the "hard part" of CPZ Act 2 entirely.

[grap3fruitman]

Chemical Plant Zone is the developers showing the players respect. Emerald Hill is a little refresher; been a while, y'know? Then Chemical Plant comes up, the audience panics, "Aw, shit! The stakes have been raised!" and you come in, right palm up, lowering and lowering it as to calm them and then simply say "I got this." The game doesn't treat you like an idiot that needs your hand held the entire way. It does feel like an accomplishment when you beat it. It's incredibly rewarding.

This post has been edited by grap3fruitman: 24 July 2014 - 12:08 AM

[doc eggfan]

Xilla, on 23 July 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

GT Koopa, on 23 July 2014 - 08:26 PM, said:

Master Emerald, on 23 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Sonic 2 is a weird game even on it's 8-bit iteration. I mean, starting with Underground zone...? Wtf.

Didn't Retro deduce in another recent thread that the order could have been originally:

Green Hills Zone
Sky High Zone
Aqua Lake Zone
Underground Zone
Gimmick Mt. Zone
Scrambled Egg Zone
Crystal Egg Zone

It is better flowed thematically. But they changed it due to either Green Hills was too hard/Underground too easy or they didn't want to show reused tiles in different zones so close together?

I thought Green Hills was pretty straight forward, the only really difficult part was the constant leap of faiths in Act 3. I'm guessing from the sudden difficulty spike that they were a late addition.

I've often wondered whether rings were ever intended for that level.

[Meat Miracle]

Ashura96, on 23 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

So yeah, I'm surprised there's hardly been a mention of the two methods of bypassing the "hard part" of CPZ Act 2 entirely.

There are two ways? I only know of one, the upper route behind the wall.

[Josh]

You can also come in on the upper path after the two(?) loops and time a jump off the ramp and up through the rotating floor. From there, it's a straight shot to the boss. That's what I always try to do. Didn't even learn about the path behind the wall until a year or two ago.

[Ashura96]

Josh, on 24 July 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

You can also come in on the upper path after the two(?) loops and time a jump off the ramp and up through the rotating floor.

This.

First figured this out on my own way back in 1993/4.

Discovered the hidden wall path that more people know about some years later after learning about and messing around in debug mode.

On that note, back then at my daycare center we got a Sega Genesis with Sonic 2, and there was only one kid there who could actually complete the rising mega mack section on his own. Everyone else got stuck there, and often asked him to complete it for him. Although I remember the daycare staff discouraging that, because they wanted everyone to be able to play on their own.

Then I came in and wow'ed them with spindash trickery and skipping it all together. />

This post has been edited by Ashura96: 24 July 2014 - 11:06 AM

[Meat Miracle]

Wouldn't you still have to cross two water pits on the way? Both of them being bottomless, with one being showed in your face while you run at max speed?

[Ashura96]

No, just the one right before the boss.

The area where you will launch straight up is to the left of the first one.

[VectorCNC]

Josh, on 23 July 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Covarr, on 23 July 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

VectorCNC, on 23 July 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Has anyone considered the juxtaposition of Emerald Hill v. Hydrocity Chemical Plant for the purpose of the overall narative?

I think the placement of Hydrocity Chemical Plant was intended to convey the nature v. technology/industrialism immediately to the player. Most casual gamers and young children don't make it past the first couple zones, so by placing the tropical paradise of nature with the arguably warmest palette against the unnatural polluted cityscape with the coldest palette, it is one further means of conveying this narrative quickly.

We see in the first zone how this conflict can alter the inhabitants, but it is immediately conveyed in the second zone how the conflict radically transforms environments. Blue sky to red sky. Wide open feilds to claustrophobic vertical buildings. Shimmering clear blue ocean to neon pink cesspool. Etc.

As well, Hydrocity Chemical Plant really is not very hard overall. The small platforms which subtly glide across the water are about the only difficult mechanic, and teach the player about platforming, timing, and the risk of barreling forward. It says, “you can experience incredible speed, too fast for the camera even, but don't expect to run blindly without repercussions.” To this day I still run right off the edge on occasion because I'm barreling forward.

I'm going to assume you meant Chemical Plant, because it's the only way this post makes sense. But you did get me thinking.

Angel Island Zone does manage to get a similar idea across, merely halfway through the first act, by lighting everything on fire. Yeah, it was a cool visual effect, and it was fun to see how much difference a palette change, a few fire sprites, and heat waves could make, but it also went a long way toward showing off just how destructive the bad guys could be. Here was a lush landscape being utterly ruined for the sake of attacking Sonic. I kinda feel like doing things like this mid-stage produces a more powerful emotional effect than doing it between stages through level order.

I agree, but he still makes a good point.

Thanks Josh, and yes I did mean Chemical Plant. That's what I get for dividing my attention at work I suppose.

I'd be lying Josh if I said I hadn't been influenced by the video of yours I watched yesterday. In particular, the idea of balance when "barreling forward".

Perhaps I am getting off topic, but I think Josh or someone else should make an in-depth video focusing on the aesthetic of the Sonic The Hedgehog Universe in general. That's another crucial aspect of the game which seems to have been lost, and I don't see people ever discuss it or give it the attention it deserves, aside from peripherally such as we are discussing now. Mario, for example, has retained a fairly consistent look since Mario Bros 3, but Sonic never seemed to define any particular aesthetic post ~Sonic 3D Blast (?).

Obviously, in large part the Genesis Sonic aesthetic was an attempt to make the hardware look more capable, three dimensional, almost as though pre-rendered in similar fashion to Donkey Kong Country for Snes. While on the one hand Sonic was to reflect the natural environment, this natural environment was distinctly artificial and synthetic itself... crystalline, modular, dare I say art deco. Sonic had an edge, classic Sonic was very "Modern" really.

Mario by contrast was very soft and flat at the time, while improved upon it never really lost that character . It seems, however, Sonic developers simply pursued realism, how realistic can we make the environments look and at high speed. The gaming industry is always pushing for more and more realistic graphics in part to drive new hardware, but that does not correlate with a better gaming experience necessarily, hence why Nintendo games continue to rank among the highest with critics even with inferior hardware. That is why we ended up with bland mannequin-like people in Sonic Adventure and a similar look in Sonic 2006. Only by Sonic Unleashed did I finally begin to see some semblance of a renewed aesthetic for the Sonic Universe. Nonetheless, the Sonic Universe is still sort of bland, sort of Ratchet and Clank-esque but not unique. I could make a similar argument concerning the music, but I digress...

Sonic also seems to have lost its narrative, the nature v. technology idea I referenced previously. Miles became some sort of techno-genious on par with Eggman, epitomized by the classic biplane becoming a purple fighter jet, so... technology v. technology? And then things moved even further with attention on magic and the supernatural and the narrative digressed into merely chaos v. order (?) which is nebulous code-speak for unspecific good v. bad...

For that matter what is the technology of the Sonic universe? What is the character and aesthetic of this technology? Is it ultra-modern, or steampunk, for example? I have yet to EVER see ANYONE address this VERY IMPORTANT question. Again, I fail to see consistency within the franchise. Making Eggman ultra-modern, again, seems like a direction chosen without any thought, and likewise seems soulless. This is a criticism I cannot make of the Studio Ghibli, Miyazaki, anime. I love these films because they always seem to have fully considered the "sociology" if you will. Consider the film, Castle in the Sky, one of my favorites which I suggest you watch if you never had, and of which the Sonic franchise has borrowed heavily from.



Gee whiz, that looks sort of familiar... Wing Fortress Zone, perhaps, or maybe Flying Battery... But what does the technology of this airship and its mechanisms tell us about the world it inhabits?

But you see how this airship is impressive and modern but has a unique look to it, it is charming. It isn't just "ultra modern" and therefore we should just suspend all other thoughts because it's on par with magic. Compare this airship with the Egg Carrier of Sonic Adventure. A similar change occurred with the bosses and robots, all tough and scary, but not memorable or unique to the Sonic Universe. As a result the series became bland aesthetically. I wish they would return to the roots, or at least consider a more realized world and aesthetic. Anyway, cutting it short as I sort of went on a rant. I should start a thread on this topic maybe. (I'm still a pending member)

Thoughts?