[ICEknight]

..."The only 3"?

[Covarr]

ICEknight, on 23 July 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

..."The only 3"?

Chemical Plant 2, Aquatic Ruin 1, Aquatic Ruin 2. Trust me, it makes sense.

[steveswede]

Tralis, on 22 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

Chemical Plant Zone seems out of place so early in Sonic 2. It seems more at home around Oil Ocean and Metropolis than Green Hill and Aquatic Ruins.

Don't agree one bit. My experience of visiting and working at water treatment plants and steel foundries proves this. Miles of country usually surrounds them with pockets of very small villages near to them (a lot of the time around ten houses). Also nuclear power plants are set near to a water source like the sea to cool down the reactor so it's perfectly reasonable to have a factory/plant near EHZ considering you can see the sea in the background.

[Josh]

Well, if we're kind of basing it on Sonic 1's weird difficulty curve and flow, it WOULD make sense so late in the game. Star Light is probably the fastest zone in the game as far as the speeds you can reach. It's also fairly easy, but has some tricky platforming sections. Chemical Plant has some similarities. If we're generally going from natural to factory while keeping in mind difficulty and the existing progression, I might do it something like:

• Emerald Hill
  
• Aquatic Ruin
  
• Hill Top
  
• Casino Night
  
• Mystic Cave
  
• Chemical Plant
  
• Oil Ocean
  
• Sky Chase
  
• Wing Fortress
  
• Death Egg

Yeah, I know that's missing Metropolis. I said this is how I would do it. Sonic enters civilization in Casino Night, infiltrates Chemical Plant by way of Mystic Cave, and the plant logically leads to Oil Ocean, which is right outside.

EDIT: This order still preserves the day cycle, it just makes it so Oil Ocean is taking place at sunrise rather than an assumed near-sunset. It always kind of weirded me out that Casino Night had nighttime last for all of one level, then it was right back to day for Hill Top. Metropolis taking place all through the "second" night made perfect sense, though. :P

This post has been edited by Josh: 23 July 2014 - 12:23 PM

[VectorCNC]

Has anyone considered the juxtaposition of Emerald Hill v. Hydrocity for the purpose of the overall narative?

I think the placement of Hydrocity was intended to convey the nature v. technology/industrialism immediately to the player. Most casual gamers and young children don't make it past the first couple zones, so by placing the tropical paradise of nature with the arguably warmest palette against the unnatural polluted cityscape with the coldest palette, it is one further means of conveying this narrative quickly.

We see in the first zone how this conflict can alter the inhabitants, but it is immediately conveyed in the second zone how the conflict radically transforms environments. Blue sky to red sky. Wide open feilds to claustrophobic vertical buildings. Shimmering clear blue ocean to neon pink cesspool. Etc.

As well, Hydrocity really is not very hard overall. The small platforms which subtly glide across the water are about the only difficult mechanic, and teach the player about platforming, timing, and the risk of barreling forward. It says, “you can experience incredible speed, too fast for the camera even, but don't expect to run blindly without repercussions.” To this day I still run right off the edge on occasion because I'm barreling forward.

[nineko]

@ICEknight: yes, I assumed he meant "3 levels" as 3 acts, not as 3 zones. It does make sense.

Instead, having them in a row doesn't.

[Covarr]

VectorCNC, on 23 July 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Has anyone considered the juxtaposition of Emerald Hill v. Hydrocity Chemical Plant for the purpose of the overall narative?

I think the placement of Hydrocity Chemical Plant was intended to convey the nature v. technology/industrialism immediately to the player. Most casual gamers and young children don't make it past the first couple zones, so by placing the tropical paradise of nature with the arguably warmest palette against the unnatural polluted cityscape with the coldest palette, it is one further means of conveying this narrative quickly.

We see in the first zone how this conflict can alter the inhabitants, but it is immediately conveyed in the second zone how the conflict radically transforms environments. Blue sky to red sky. Wide open feilds to claustrophobic vertical buildings. Shimmering clear blue ocean to neon pink cesspool. Etc.

As well, Hydrocity Chemical Plant really is not very hard overall. The small platforms which subtly glide across the water are about the only difficult mechanic, and teach the player about platforming, timing, and the risk of barreling forward. It says, “you can experience incredible speed, too fast for the camera even, but don't expect to run blindly without repercussions.” To this day I still run right off the edge on occasion because I'm barreling forward.

I'm going to assume you meant Chemical Plant, because it's the only way this post makes sense. But you did get me thinking.

Angel Island Zone does manage to get a similar idea across, merely halfway through the first act, by lighting everything on fire. Yeah, it was a cool visual effect, and it was fun to see how much difference a palette change, a few fire sprites, and heat waves could make, but it also went a long way toward showing off just how destructive the bad guys could be. Here was a lush landscape being utterly ruined for the sake of attacking Sonic. I kinda feel like doing things like this mid-stage produces a more powerful emotional effect than doing it between stages through level order.

[Josh]

Covarr, on 23 July 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

VectorCNC, on 23 July 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Has anyone considered the juxtaposition of Emerald Hill v. Hydrocity Chemical Plant for the purpose of the overall narative?

I think the placement of Hydrocity Chemical Plant was intended to convey the nature v. technology/industrialism immediately to the player. Most casual gamers and young children don't make it past the first couple zones, so by placing the tropical paradise of nature with the arguably warmest palette against the unnatural polluted cityscape with the coldest palette, it is one further means of conveying this narrative quickly.

We see in the first zone how this conflict can alter the inhabitants, but it is immediately conveyed in the second zone how the conflict radically transforms environments. Blue sky to red sky. Wide open feilds to claustrophobic vertical buildings. Shimmering clear blue ocean to neon pink cesspool. Etc.

As well, Hydrocity Chemical Plant really is not very hard overall. The small platforms which subtly glide across the water are about the only difficult mechanic, and teach the player about platforming, timing, and the risk of barreling forward. It says, “you can experience incredible speed, too fast for the camera even, but don't expect to run blindly without repercussions.” To this day I still run right off the edge on occasion because I'm barreling forward.

I'm going to assume you meant Chemical Plant, because it's the only way this post makes sense. But you did get me thinking.

Angel Island Zone does manage to get a similar idea across, merely halfway through the first act, by lighting everything on fire. Yeah, it was a cool visual effect, and it was fun to see how much difference a palette change, a few fire sprites, and heat waves could make, but it also went a long way toward showing off just how destructive the bad guys could be. Here was a lush landscape being utterly ruined for the sake of attacking Sonic. I kinda feel like doing things like this mid-stage produces a more powerful emotional effect than doing it between stages through level order.

I agree, but he still makes a good point. Plus the whole idea of inter-act cutscenes wasn't really a thing yet in Sonic 2.

I'm kind surprised nobody's made a hack where Angel Island Zone DIDN'T get set on fire! I suppose it has something to do with the different art assets and the inherent difficulty of hacking S3&K. But I've always really loved the art in that first little stretch of the zone. How crazy would it be to just destroy the first Fire Breath and continue through that tropical paradise?

This post has been edited by Josh: 23 July 2014 - 01:27 PM

[Caverns 4]

Quote

00 Emerald Hill zone
01 ---
02 Wood zone
03 ---
04 Metropolis zone
05 Metropolis zone act 3
06 ---
07 Hill Top zone
08 Hidden Palace zone
09 ---
0A Oil Ocean zone
0B Dust Hill zone
0C Casino Night zone
0D Chemical Plant zone
0E Genocide City zone
0F Neo Green Hill zone
10 Death Egg zone

While this is being brought up, there are a few related things I want to bring up.
In the final version of Sonic 2, Death Egg has been "moved" to Zone 0E, and slot $10 has become Sky Chase. While the music ID's might not be much to go by, it's curious to note that in both the Simon Wai Prototype and the final, Zone slot 09 plays Sky Chase Zone's music. It's not necessarily related to the topic at hand, but it is curious.

More on topic, is the mention of the enemy, Bubbler's Mother (and Bubbler of course). A fish badnik with 3 eyes. To begin, having 3 eyes is a hint at being eradiated or infected in such a way that it deformed (which is rather fitting to the theme of Chemical plant, more than any other Zone). Bubbler's Mother itself, and the fact that it's unused (but present in the form of art) in the Nick Arcade Prototype AND Simon Wai prototype of Sonic 2, are a pretty big hint to me that at some point, the level was massively redesgined to better fit the identity of a second level.

Also, another quick thing:
http://info.sonicret...ket_bubbler.png
"Chemical Factory Zone, it says? Chemical factory? I've never heard anybody mention this (to my memory), but it may suggest the Zone's name was changed at some point... Or just a concept artist not knowing the right name, that's possible too.

And, jumping back to present

Quote

a hack where Angel Island Zone DIDN'T get set on fire

I'd fund it.

[FuzzballFox]

Pft I want a real CHEMICAL PANTS zone....and it better be a HIGH SNEED LEVEL

[Dark Sonic]

I've always found Chemical Plant to be weird. Like, I feel like none of it fits. The background doesn't fit the foreground and the music seems... off. It's a fun level, I just don't feel the pieces line up together. On top of that, it's the second level when it should be like, the 5th.

Personally I'd like to see Metropolis Zone with Chemical Plant's graphics. I never cared for the vibe of Metropolis, but if Chemical plant was later in the game, I think it's tile set would work perfectly. Of course then you lose a fun level overall.

[Andrew75]

Would be fun if someone re-arranged the level order, just for kicks.
Edit: you know as a mod ?

This post has been edited by Andrew75: 23 July 2014 - 07:33 PM

[Dark Sonic]

Andrew75, on 23 July 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

Would be fun if someone re-arranged the level order, just for kicks.
Edit: you know as a mod ?

Hmmm, what do you think as a layout? I'm thinking this:

1. Emerald Hill Zone
2. Aquatic Ruin Zone
3. Hill Top Zone
4. Mystic Cave Zone
5. Oil Ocean Zone
6. Metropolis Zone
7. Casino Night Zone
8. Chemical Plant Zone
9. Sky Chase Zone
10. Wing Fortress Zone
11. Death Egg Zone

Sonic 2 really does have a lot of technology levels huh.

[Master Emerald]

Well, Chemical Plant had it's level layout almost complete in Nick Arcade prototype so it's position and level art seems intentional to me.

Sonic 2 is a weird game even on it's 8-bit iteration. I mean, starting with Underground zone...? Wtf.

[GT Koopa]

Master Emerald, on 23 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

Sonic 2 is a weird game even on it's 8-bit iteration. I mean, starting with Underground zone...? Wtf.

Didn't Retro deduce in another recent thread that the order could have been originally:

Green Hills Zone
Sky High Zone
Aqua Lake Zone
Underground Zone
Gimmick Mt. Zone
Scrambled Egg Zone
Crystal Egg Zone

It is better flowed thematically. But they changed it due to either Green Hills was too hard/Underground too easy or they didn't want to show reused tiles in different zones so close together?