[Tralis]

Seeing Sonic Generations made me think about Chemical Plant Zone more deeply than I had ever before. Sonic games tend to escalate in terms of the urbanness and industrialness of each zone as the game goes on. Not a hard rule, but it definitely seems like a pattern. Chemical Plant Zone seems out of place so early in Sonic 2. It seems more at home around Oil Ocean and Metropolis than Emerald Hill and Aquatic Ruins. It's also a pretty difficult zone, with the unbreatheable mega mack. Why was it so early in Sonic 2? Did they just want to show off how fast the game could be?

This post has been edited by Tralis: 23 July 2014 - 04:47 PM

[JaxTH]

Maybe there are just several bases of operation.

[360]

Blast processing. Seriously though you're correct the placement is strange. The spike in difficulty is ridiculous for stage two. It's definitely an interesting question. Theories?

[Covarr]

I never thought it was that difficult. Hardly any enemies, and most of the platforming offers a lot of room for imprecision.

[Qtheman]

Wasn't it more or less confirmed that originally, CPZ was supposed to be much later on in the game? I want to say it was intended as zone 10 or something, but I don't remember for sure... Can't remember where I read that now or if I'm even recalling it correctly, blah.

EDIT: According to the Wiki, Sonic Jam commentary says CPZ was supposed to be the 10th zone back when Sonic 2 was going to be an 18-zone game, so there you go.

This post has been edited by Qtheman: 23 July 2014 - 01:01 AM

[muteKi]

The biggest problem with Chemical Plant's location is that aside from the fact that it breaks the pattern of increasing urbanization over the course of the game, it makes the location of aquatic ruin seem really dumb. The first place that water mechanics are introduced into the game and air bubbles only show up afterward? What self-respecting game designer introduces a challenge to the player at its least forgiving? Plus, placing the only 3 water levels in the entire game back to back is absurd, especially given they're all near the start of the game. May as well stick Hill Top next to Emerald Hill while y'all are at it so that all your repeated gimmicks can die of overexposure.

Plus, CPZ's meant to call back to some aspects of Scrap Brain Zone, especially with the toxic pink water matching up with Act 3. This should have been probably Zone 6, whereupon they could actually troll the player into thinking that maybe it was the end of the game. But no, like 5-6 more levels coming up after that, as if to say, YES SONIC 2 IS TWICE AS BIG AS SONIC 1, FOLKS. Placing it in slot 2 is certainly their way of saying they liked the zone enough to make it really prominent (and, granted, act 1 isn't particularly troublesome itself, especially if you take certain routes).

[grap3fruitman]

You all love it though. So whatever the reasoning may be, it was genius and it worked in light of all your criticisms.

[Rika Chou]

Qtheman, on 23 July 2014 - 12:53 AM, said:

Wasn't it more or less confirmed that originally, CPZ was supposed to be much later on in the game? I want to say it was intended as zone 10 or something, but I don't remember for sure... Can't remember where I read that now or if I'm even recalling it correctly, blah.

EDIT: According to the Wiki, Sonic Jam commentary says CPZ was supposed to be the 10th zone back when Sonic 2 was going to be an 18-zone game, so there you go.

The level slot order in the Wai beta kinda goes along with this.

Quote

00 Emerald Hill zone
01 ---
02 Wood zone
03 ---
04 Metropolis zone
05 Metropolis zone act 3
06 ---
07 Hill Top zone
08 Hidden Palace zone
09 ---
0A Oil Ocean zone
0B Dust Hill zone
0C Casino Night zone
0D Chemical Plant zone
0E Genocide City zone
0F Neo Green Hill zone
10 Death Egg zone

Though the placment of Metropolis and Aquatic Ruin is kind of strange.

This post has been edited by Rika Chou: 23 July 2014 - 01:17 AM

[Covarr]

grap3fruitman, on 23 July 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

You all love it though. So whatever the reasoning may be, it was genius and it worked in light of all your criticisms.

I think you may be onto something here. If nothing else, it's a far cry from Sonic 1's second stage, which was too hard and slow and boring.

[Qtheman]

Rika Chou, on 23 July 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

The level slot order in the Wai beta kinda goes along with this.

Quote

00 Emerald Hill zone
01 ---
02 Wood zone
03 ---
04 Metropolis zone
05 Metropolis zone act 3
06 ---
07 Hill Top zone
08 Hidden Palace zone
09 ---
0A Oil Ocean zone
0B Dust Hill zone
0C Casino Night zone
0D Chemical Plant zone
0E Genocide City zone
0F Neo Green Hill zone
10 Death Egg zone

Though the placment of Metropolis and Aquatic Ruin is kind of strange.

Yeah, I wasn't entirely sure on how much weight the internal level order would really carry, considering where MZ is. Obviously this is completely in speculation territory, but - while I'm not sure about ARZ - maybe Metropolis being near the start of the list was connected to that old time-travel gimmick? Assuming it was related to Wood Zone as a "bad future" type deal, at any rate. Just throwing out a possibility, please don't kill me if it's dumb or been suggested before

Putting that aside, I'll echo the sentiment that CPZ is great, if a bit misplaced when it comes down to it.

[Irixion]

Tralis, on 22 July 2014 - 11:09 PM, said:

...It seems more at home around Oil Ocean and Metropolis than Green Hill and Aquatic Ruins...

Green Hill?

Seriously though, the only part I thought was very difficult was the part where the mega mack rises. That filled with the unavoidable leg because of the amount of bubbles, and you have yourself a recipe for disaster. The placement is weird but CPZ was also originally intended to be... a lot more complicated as per the drx beta. Who knows though?

[Sparks]

I do recall hearing something about Chemical Plant was once a later stage, probably from the Wai Beta list that Rika post. I don't know if the developers actually planned to have CPZ as a later stage though.

grap3fruitman, on 23 July 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

You all love it though. So whatever the reasoning may be, it was genius and it worked in light of all your criticisms.

This too. Right after beating Emerald Hill Zone, the player is thrown into the fastest zone in Sonic 2, chock loaded with the twists and turns that define Sonic levels, and cemented its fate as the most iconic zone of the game (Casino Nights right up there too). Sonic Team repeated the process in Sonic 3 by putting Hydrocity Zone right after Angel Island Zone.

[muteKi]

Hydrocity? If Sonic 3 has a CPZ-like rollercoaster level I'd argue that Ice Cap fits the bill just a little bit better probably.

[TheInvisibleSun]

muteKi, on 23 July 2014 - 03:07 AM, said:

Hydrocity? If Sonic 3 has a CPZ-like rollercoaster level I'd argue that Ice Cap fits the bill just a little bit better probably.

Not sure I can agree with that; Hydrocity even has long intersecting diagonal waterslides that harken back to Chemical Plant level design techniques directly.

[nineko]

muteKi, on 23 July 2014 - 12:56 AM, said:

placing the only 3 water levels in the entire game back to back is absurd

This is something I always thought as well. As much as I hate water levels, it would make much more sense to spread them out on the whole game.