[Machenstein]

In defense of Wacky Workbench, I do like the sense of flight that level gives me. It recaptures the joy of jumping on a trampoline. I'd also say it's a fine level to practice the bounce trick in.

[steveswede]

Just going to touch on the subject about slow pacing in the classic games and why I think some people might have the wrong idea thinking it's bad. Slow pacing sections in Sonic games are fine, uninteresting slow pacing sections are bad. Sonic CD does this in the bucket loads with large empty areas of platforming which is why I don't rate it as high as the other classic games. This isn't the norm in Sonic 1 where most of these slow sections give you a satisfying experience once you overcome them. All the acts in Scrap Brain Zone are mainly slow paced sections and have a fuck ton of hazards that are interesting to overcome which makes Scrap Brain very replayable. Interesting level design is the reason I mainly like the Sonic games and is something I only really see in most of the early Sonic games.

[Hinchy]

doc eggfan, on 12 July 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

If you can't achieve the speed in Sonic 1 or Sonic CD, then you haven't spent enough time to learn the levels. Even Wacky Workbench has a speed route. Sonic 2 is just easier, not better designed.

Well, to be fair, there are a few levels in Sonic 1 like Marble Zone that were pretty linear platformer-ass-platformer style levels that don't allow a lot of opportunity for conservation of momentum.
But mostly you're right.

also I like Wacky Workbench.

[doc eggfan]

Hinchy, on 12 July 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

doc eggfan, on 12 July 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

If you can't achieve the speed in Sonic 1 or Sonic CD, then you haven't spent enough time to learn the levels. Even Wacky Workbench has a speed route. Sonic 2 is just easier, not better designed.

Well, to be fair, there are a few levels in Sonic 1 like Marble Zone that were pretty linear platformer-ass-platformer style levels that don't allow a lot of opportunity for conservation of momentum.
But mostly you're right.

also I like Wacky Workbench.

Even though Marble zone is what it is, you can still establish a speed run though it with baby smooth motion and perfectly timed jumps.

[Covarr]

doc eggfan, on 12 July 2014 - 01:49 AM, said:

If you can't achieve the speed in Sonic 1 or Sonic CD, then you haven't spent enough time to learn the levels. Even Wacky Workbench has a speed route. Sonic 2 is just easier, not better designed.

A great game should reward skill mastery, not level memorization. And that's really the big difference between Sonic 1 and Sonic CD. In the former, if you want to go fast, you have to play better. In the latter, you have to know the right routes.

I know the right routes, though, and I still find Sonic CD problematic. I played it last night because of this conversation, twice even (though admittedly the second time was with Tails and I mostly flew over stages when I could). Throughout the game I found springs that led directly into spikes and walls, staircase sections that could only be passed slowly, constant springs that point backwards right at the end of stages... This stuff isn't challenge. It doesn't make the game harder. It only makes the game longer. And any obstacle whose only solutions are either to let them take their toll, or to already know about them, are bad obstacles.

In Sonic 1 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles, even the slow routes can be fast if you're skilled enough. That's a lot of what I love about these games (and to a lesser extent Sonic 2, though it really is too easy). Speed is a reward for skill. That's the mantra that the series should always stick with, because it's at its best when it does. But Sonic CD sees speed as a reward for memorizing the stages; actual skill is totally irrelevant for almost everything except the bosses. Enemies, obstacles, entire routes will slow you down if you don't know in advance that they're there. Virtually the entire game requires you to react to things before they're onscreen. As I see it, learning the levels to get past these things faster or more safely is a workaround, all that should ever be required is mastering the game mechanics.

[Thousand Pancake]

I like the newer Sonic games because you can blast through everything and feel practically unstoppable. Getting bruised doesn't matter, just so long as you can hold on to at least one ring.

I like the older Sonic games because it's fun to use the spin attack on the terrain to see how much momentum you can build up and where you can go.

[Machenstein]

I suppose your enjoyment of Sonic CD depends on what goal you have. If your goal is to simply get to the end, you probably won't have that good of a time. I usually just soak in the atmosphere as I interact with the environment and appreciate the game's quirky aesthetics.

I guess that's the reason I like Sonic games. Speed challenges and strong mechanics do help, but I mostly gravitate towards games that have charm. Classic era Sonic definitely has charm, what with their great music and their "Escher meets Felix the Cat" art style. Any IP can produce games with strong mechanics, at least when put in the right hands, but there's a certain quality about Sonic that makes Sonic... Sonic. It could be purely cosmetic, but I also get the feeling a character like Sonic was designed with specific gameplay mechanics in mind. He's a hedgehog. Hedgehogs roll in a ball. This is integral to how Sonic games play and why we concern ourselves with things like rolling physics.

This post has been edited by Machenstein: 12 July 2014 - 02:13 PM

[Shockwave]

Machenstein, on 12 July 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

I suppose your enjoyment of Sonic CD depends on what goal you have. If your goal is to simply get to the end, you probably won't have that good of a time. I usually just soak in the atmosphere as I interact with the environment and appreciate the game's quirky aesthetics.

As someone who considers Sonic CD one of my favorites, I can definitely agree with this. Mind you, I also don't mind doing that kind of play through in CD, there's not nearly as much to it as actually using the time travel mechanic, but it can be fun for a quick, time wasting run. More than anything, I appreciate the option to do so. Not many other Sonic games (if any) give you multiple ways to achieve the good ending, and even though it's clearly intended for most people to destroy all the generators in the past, I like that they still kept the ability to simply go to the end, even if it's not done as well as the main trilogy (although, I personally find it more interesting to run through than most of Sonic 2 honestly).

There's a variety of reasons why I enjoy Sonic CD as much as I do. Aesthetically, it's one of my favorite games to just look at, all the levels are very vibrant and colorful. The environments themselves are all really cool, even though a lot of them are taken straight out of Sonic 1. Being able to see the different interpretations of each level as you time travel is also very fun to me. I love traversing each of the acts in this game, there's plenty of unique platform arrangements and objects throughout that always keep me interested in just looking around the level and seeing what I can find. Hell, I even love going through Wacky Workbench, even if it becomes difficult to find some proper footing after bouncing around so much. It's a very crazy, energetic level that still retains a large amount of areas to explore. The bosses are pretty nice to me just for being more unique and involved than jumping on Eggman eight times. Granted, they are all very easy, but honestly the same could be said for most bosses in the main trilogy. There's only a handful that, even as a child, I wasn't able to just bounce on or jump to quickly in some way or another. The music also greatly adds to the experience this game offers. I think both soundtracks are fantastic and do an amazing job fitting the game and whatever environment/tone is currently being displayed. I have a bit more preference towards the original soundtrack just for being more upbeat and lively, which I think works best for a Sonic game, but the US soundtrack works wonderfully as well just for being much more atmospheric and playing up the darker tones a bit more in the bad future of a zone.

As for other games in the series, my reasons are similar enough to a few earlier posts. I enjoy classics like S3K for how well they mixed elements of speed and exploration. I enjoy more recent games like Generations for how fast paced they become without completely removing control (in most cases). I even still appreciate earlier 3D games such as SA2 because, though they are very dated, they still contained a lot of extras and unlockable content, which gave them a high amount of replay value to me.

This post has been edited by Shockwave677: 12 July 2014 - 03:24 PM

[Jen]

Sonic's been a big part of my life for a very long time - specifically, since summer 1992, around the time of my 5th birthday. I know I've told this story before, but allow me to do so again: my prior gaming experience was with an Atari 2600, which I'd been playing since I was old enough to hold the controller. Q*Bert was my first video game hero. And then one day, my dad got a Mega Drive; I walked into the room as Sonic 1 was loading up and I just stood there staring in dissbelief at how colourful it was, then started really smiling when I saw Sonic pop up on the screen. Haha, I remember it so well - my first reaction was literally "oh, he's so CUTE!".

And here we are; it's summer 2014, around the time of my 27th birthday, and I still love the little blue dude. He's helped me find a husband, find a group of friends I'll have for life, given me hours of brilliant fun and many wonderful memories.

Sonic is my favourite game series, and Sonic 3 & Knuckles my favourite game of all time. The classics are, and probably always will be, my favourites. No matter how fucking awful some of the newer games have been (Sonic 06, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, etc...), I know that I can always fire up the Mega Drive and lose myself in the classic series for a while. I think that's one of the main reasons why I'm still such a big fan, because I can always fall back on the classics no matter what. They've aged perfectly.

But why the classics in particular? Well for one thing, they're easy to "pick up and play" but take a long time to actually master. When I was a young child, I went through the levels as fast as I could, but I was never exceptionally fast because I hadn't mastered the art of rolling at that age. Sure, I finished all the games with all the Emeralds, but never very quickly and, in the case of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, hardly ever in one sitting. Nowadays it's a completely different story. I can blast through the games because I've completely gotten to grips with the mechanics of them as a result of years and years of playing.

I know a lot of people have spoken about the speed aspect, and that's obviously a very big thing. But one of the main things for me, which goes hand-in-hand with the speed, is the actual flow of the games. If you know what you're doing you can go through the levels so smoothly, flowing your moves together one after the other. It's a really satisfying way to play. I tend to know just when to roll and when to jump, such that I won't come to an abrupt halt unless it's absolutely necessary. It's really nice to keep things moving all the time, I prefer to play that way.

And when things do slow down a little...

Quote

Just going to touch on the subject about slow pacing in the classic games and why I think some people might have the wrong idea thinking it's bad. Slow pacing sections in Sonic games are fine, uninteresting slow pacing sections are bad. Sonic CD does this in the bucket loads with large empty areas of platforming which is why I don't rate it as high as the other classic games. This isn't the norm in Sonic 1 where most of these slow sections give you a satisfying experience once you overcome them. All the acts in Scrap Brain Zone are mainly slow paced sections and have a fuck ton of hazards that are interesting to overcome which makes Scrap Brain very replayable. Interesting level design is the reason I mainly like the Sonic games and is something I only really see in most of the early Sonic games.

Basically this. Levels like Scrap Brain still keep you on your toes, and make you think fast rather than move fast - which, for me, is the perfect balance.

I also love the actual look of the classic games as well. Beautiful, bright, surreal environments - much more appealing than the "realistic" stuff in some of the modern games. The soundtracks are also really nice.

I like the actual character of Sonic, too - well, before he started opening his mouth at least =P Classic Sonic is so full of personality. He's quite cute, but a badass at the same time. You wouldn't fuck with Classic Sonic - hell, keep him waiting for a few seconds and, as we all know, he'll glare at you and give his trademark foot tap. There's just something really cool about him that's hard to pin down. He has attitude, as the 90s merchandise used to always spell out to us ("The Hedgehog With Attitude"!) ;P The actual design has a sort of timeless charm about it as well, somewhere between Felix the Cat and Mickey Mouse. Modern, on the other hand, not so much. I think he was at his best in, for example, the pre-boss cutscenes from Generations; acting genuinely cool without speaking a word. I'm also not keen on the design - never have been, never will be. The timeless Mickey/Felix-esque charm of the original is totally gone, and I always find his proportions to be a bit strange. It's not just about the green eyes! ;P

There's also the obvious nostalgic factor. As I said earlier, I was 5 when I played the first game, so I've grown up with the series. I'm not gonna lie, I had a tear in my eye the first time I played through parts of Generations, simply because of the nostalgia (the classic levels with their beautiful makeovers and remixed music, and then that ending music... good god).

I do love some of the modern games, don't get me wrong. For me, Sonic Adventure is one of the best. It captures the feel of the classics really well in many ways, despite its obvious flaws. There's a massive nostalgia factor with this one as well, like with the classics. I got the game with the Dreamcast console at Christmas '99 and I fell in love with it. To this day I often find myself blasting through Sonic's levels in the game. The other characters were good, but I think the game would have benefitted from being a bit more like Sonic 3 & Knuckles insofar as the other characters playing similarly to Sonic but using their unique abilities to access parts of the levels that Sonic can't reach. Treasure hunting, shooting, fishing; in a Sonic game? Nah, I'm not really feeling it.

Generations is brilliant. I hate the boost to be honest (I'm in the "speed should be a reward, not given at the press of a button" club), but the level design is really, really nice. I think Seaside Hill in particular stands out to me; it's packed full of alternate routes, flows nicely, and is generally just a joy to play. Going back and playing it now really makes me wish the formula had been refined rather than completely thrown out for something else, but there you go.

...Sorry that was such a wall of text, I got a bit carried away.

[Dark Sonic]

This is a really interesting question. No matter how many times the little blue rodent has disappointed me, I still love the series. Sonic 2 was the first game I ever played back in 1994. I don't know what drew me into it. The music, the environments, the gameplay, or the character itself. Not sure, I was too young to remember that far back. All I know is from day one I played it I fell in love. Back then I was terrible. I got Game Overs in Emerald Hill and Chemical Plant, but as time went on I still played. I had my struggles (I went to the Death Egg Robot once I had Sonic Jam and could play as Knuckles. I had 20 lives and 3 continues. Game Over. AHHHH), and it took me 9 years, but I enjoyed playing that game and learning how to master it.

Sonic's influenced my life in odd ways. I'm not sure if I would have lived my life the same had I played a Mario game first. Sonic got me into running Cross Country and Track, the only sports I ever really excelled at. Of course after a while Sonic wasn't in mind with running, but I always feel a stupid giddy feeling when I run to Sonic music. Sonic also fueled my art interest as I drew him (and still draw him) a lot. Hell, Sonic is like, 80% of the reason I like video games. Honestly I look at my shelf and just think that no matter how many games I have, Sonic games always come out on top. No other franchise would I give a crap about if it reached it's 23rd birthday (well, Crash Bandicoot maybe if he was still relevant, but alas, he's not).

If there is an after life there are two questions I want answered. One is how many hours have I played Sonic 3 and Knuckles. The other is how many hours I played Sonic games in total. The numbers are probably just insane. But for some reason everything about the classics just draws me into the series, and no matter what Sega does these days I'll always have those.

I'm curious though. I wonder if I would have loved Sonic as much if the first game I played was Sonic 1. I mean, probably, but it's definitely my least favorite of the classic 3 (4 if you count CD, 5 if you count Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles as 2 games, but who does?)

[Josh]

Jen, on 12 July 2014 - 03:30 PM, said:

I hate the boost to be honest (I'm in the "speed should be a reward, not given at the press of a button" club), but the level design is really, really nice.

Here's something I'd like to address. And this isn't calling you out or anything, but for anyone who hates the boost. I agree that in a lot of Unleashed, WAY too much time was spent blindly boosting ahead. The levels in Generations are actually a lot shorter, but they're a lot more dense, as well.

That's what's so brilliant about Generations. Green Hill there is just like how I described Emerald Hill in my video. It's easy and exciting the first time you hit that kind of speed and blow through enemies, and everyone I've seen play it had that kind of, "Woah, awesome," reaction to it... but the rest of the game isn't designed that way at all. There's a real complexity to the level design.

Just because Modern Sonic has the ability to hit his max speed at the press of a button doesn't AT ALL mean that YOU as a player are going to actually be going fast if you use it haphazardly. You'll careen off edges, into traps... in the classics, holding right to win after the first zone won't work, it'll frustrate you. In Generations, boosting to win is the same way. Sonic's movement speed and your actual speed through a zone are very different concepts.

[The Game Collector]

If people read the instruction manuals, they would know how to do all of the moves regardless which games they played first.

[Josh]

The Game Collector, on 15 July 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

If people read the instruction manuals, they would know how to do all of the moves regardless which games they played first.

That's the weird thing - I did read the instruction manual. I read the fuck out of that thing. It's beat all to hell. I think I was just too young to understand the ramifications of, "Press the D-Button DOWN to spin like wildfire and bump off enemies."

[Kail]

Sonic, to me, represents the only time in my childhood that me and my brother weren't trying to kill each other. We HATED each other, but when it came to Sonic we were the best of friends. In recent years I've more or less lost interest in Sonic, even though I have a Sonic tattoo over my heart (so I can tell Nintendo fans they're not welcome at my dinner table), but now Sonic represents a great way for me to bond with my son. He just turned two and he loves Sonic just like I did when I was a kid, so I gave him all my sonic merch and begrudgingly opened up the figures I'd collected. I even gave him my Joyride Studios Shadow chase figure, which he takes to naptime with him every day.

Do I have any love for the Sonic franchise for what it is any more? No. I've outgrown Sonic, though I do still have a lot of fun with Generations and I'm excited to see what's coming out in the future, but when shit like Lost World comes out and Boom gets announced I don't get angry any more I just shake my head and keep it movin.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Mobility, traversal, and speed.

The first two are basically the same thing: I like to interact with the environment to get to new places. Hulk Ultimate Destruction*, Prototype, and Infamous are all related things, because they give you the ability to climb anything, go anywhere, all with super-human agility. They also have a sense of weight and propulsion, too. Using your own momentum to do things. Action Henk, which recently entered Early Access on Steam, also falls in to this category. I think Sonic would fit in to a lot of these molds pretty naturally, and that may even be what parkour in Lost World was intending to do, but Sonic Team is as always too restrictive on what they'll let Sonic do.

Speed's an obvious one. Sonic's a playable rollercoaster. The best implementation of that is obviously in the faster games - your Sonic Rushes, Sonic Unleashed, etcetera. Similarly, I've found myself drawn to games like Burnout, F-Zero, and Trackmania for similar reasons. Trackmania's absolutely got the "playable rollercoaster" thing down pat. Again, Sonic would slot in there fairly well.

As long as a Sonic game contains those 3 elements, everything else is gravy, as far as I'm concerned.


* Unfortunately nobody seems to play Hulk UD right. It's a very fast game, but all the gameplay footage I can find on Youtube are people walking around everywhere really slowly and not climbing much. The same technically applies to Prototype; back before that game came out, I found somebody who posted a pre-release video of him playing and he was ripping through the streets at a rather gleeful pace. I can't find it now.