[Cooljerk]

Overlord, on 24 June 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

Cooljerk, on 24 June 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Did l0st ever return to these boards? Sonic 2 HD aside, he was such a long tenured member here.

His profile says he's not signed in since the 30th of March 2012, so I guess not...

I honestly think that's a bummer. The drm was a mistake, but I'm willing to forgive and forget. I dislike when long tenured people disappear from the community.

[Endri]

Not to be a party pooper but, have I to remind you all of Sonic 3 HD? A pretentious and ambitious "HD" something of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, made in XNA, which had a playable "HD" Mushroom Hill Zone, and played nothing like any of the Sonic games of the Genesis at all?

I don't want to put bad taste in this project, and I certainly don't want to sound like a complete asshole, but I don't trust any engine that is not made by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing, like our tech members, or Nemesis, or Taxman, or Stealth, or Saxman, or Mercury, or, I don't know, even me, and even L0st himself; people who have thorough knowledge and experience on how Sonic 2 works, and who is capable of porting Sonic 2 and making a game which is 1:1 with the original (technically speaking).

What I'm trying to say is, I certainly wouldn't want an HD remake of something, which does not play anything like the original work. I would rather have a 100% accurate engine running with less than subpar graphics, but still accurate and enjoyable, than have ultra spectacular graphics running on a game that plays like any of these Sonic fan games made in any of these Game Maker/Flash/Multimedia Fusion engines. In other words, I want an accurate port. With HD assets.

However, this is a game that can be played by two persons (pun not intended): I'm, too, making my own Sonic 2 HD (oh my, another unintentional pun, haha). Well, not really: our project is a little more ambitious than that. I have the entirety of the Sonic object from Sonic 2 ported to C++, encapsulated in a pretty nice class, with variations to Sonic 1, 3, Knuckles and Chaotix. My top priority is absolute accuracy with the original games. In fact, if one is to play simultaneously this engine with the original emulated game using the same input, both games play equally the same (and recorded inputs work in the same). Perhaps mine is not as 1:1 accurate, but that is just because I fixed various problems that the orignal Genesis engine had, and improved it whenever and wherever possible: for example, I implemented my own collision system using vectors instead of the 16 bytes heightmasks; when a collision is detected, the character doesn't penetrate the wall at all, instead of being pushed off of it as the original games do (which can generate some pretty... interesting results on the Genesis game, due to the way the it is implemented on the player movement routine, changing the player's speed, allowing the player to zip through a level if performed in certain conditions). I don't have any graphics for it, but I have a theoretical representation of Sonic 2 and Emerald Hill Zone, represented with data, to test accuracy.

In other words, make me impressed by how your game plays and feels, and not by how your game looks.

[Falk]

So essentially you're saying -you- could have talked to the S2HD team a year ago and didn't.

[Cooljerk]

Endri, on 24 June 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Not to be a party pooper but, have I to remind you all of Sonic 3 HD? A pretentious and ambitious "HD" something of Sonic 3 & Knuckles, made in XNA, which had a playable "HD" Mushroom Hill Zone, and played nothing like any of the Sonic games of the Genesis at all?

I don't want to put bad taste in this project, and I certainly don't want to sound like a complete asshole, but I don't trust any engine that is not made by someone who absolutely knows what they are doing, like our tech members, or Nemesis, or Taxman, or Stealth, or Saxman, or Mercury, or, I don't know, even me, and even L0st himself; people who have thorough knowledge and experience on how Sonic 2 works, and who is capable of porting Sonic 2 and making a game which is 1:1 with the original (technically speaking).

What I'm trying to say is, I certainly wouldn't want an HD remake of something, which does not play anything like the original work. I would rather have a 100% accurate engine running with less than subpar graphics, but still accurate and enjoyable, than have ultra spectacular graphics running on a game that plays like any of these Sonic fan games made in any of these Game Maker/Flash/Multimedia Fusion engines. In other words, I want an accurate port. With HD assets.

However, this is a game that can be played by two persons (pun not intended): I'm, too, making my own Sonic 2 HD (oh my, another unintentional pun, haha). Well, not really: our project is a little more ambitious than that. I have the entirety of the Sonic object from Sonic 2 ported to C++, encapsulated in a pretty nice class, with variations to Sonic 1, 3, Knuckles and Chaotix. My top priority is absolute accuracy with the original games. In fact, if one is to play simultaneously this engine with the original emulated game using the same input, both games play equally the same (and recorded inputs work in the same). Perhaps mine is not as 1:1 accurate, but that is just because I fixed various problems that the orignal Genesis engine had, and improved it whenever and wherever possible: for example, I implemented my own collision system using vectors instead of the 16 bytes heightmasks; when a collision is detected, the character doesn't penetrate the wall at all, instead of being pushed off of it as the original games do (which can generate some pretty... interesting results on the Genesis game, due to the way the it is implemented on the player movement routine, changing the player's speed, allowing the player to zip through a level if performed in certain conditions). I don't have any graphics for it, but I have a theoretical representation of Sonic 2 and Emerald Hill Zone, represented with data, to test accuracy.

In other words, make me impressed by how your game plays and feels, and not by how your game looks.

Not much to add, but I'd like to just point out that the physics in Tax's Sonic CD remake are not 1:1 accurate either

Falk, on 24 June 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

So essentially you're saying -you- could have talked to the S2HD team a year ago and didn't.

I believe what he's saying is that talk is cheap, demonstration is hard.

This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 24 June 2014 - 02:20 PM

[Endri]

Cooljerk, on 24 June 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Not much to add, but I'd like to just point out that the physics in Tax's Sonic CD remake are not 1:1 accurate either

Yes... ? Actually, the physics themselves in Taxman's Sonic CD are accurate; other things are not 1:1 accurate and they give the impression that the physics don't look accurate. Oh, and the Special Stages. That being said, it is evident that CD is not as accurate as 1 and 2, and it makes Stealth's involvement evident. The only thing that is not accurate and really gets to me in Sonic 2 are the Special Stages. But don't make me say such a thing out loud, because Taxman is such a good friend, I like him so much, and he has done so much already!

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Frankly, I don't think this project is going to go anywhere fast. I was excited when the concept started in 2007, when a tech demow as released in 2008, and when in 2012 a proper demo was released, but it's taken far too long to get anywhere, the concept of having HD-enhanced games has now lost it's appeal and the HD remastering of Sonic 2 by Taxman has completely quenched my thirst for anything HD-Sonic related.

Until I see any major development, I'm just writing this one off. Actions speak louder than words.

[Cooljerk]

Endri, on 24 June 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Cooljerk, on 24 June 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

Not much to add, but I'd like to just point out that the physics in Tax's Sonic CD remake are not 1:1 accurate either />/>

Yes... ? Actually, the physics themselves in Taxman's Sonic CD are accurate; other things are not 1:1 accurate and they give the impression that the physics don't look accurate. Oh, and the Special Stages. That being said, it is evident that CD is not as accurate as 1 and 2, and it makes Stealth's involvement evident. The only thing that is not accurate and really gets to me in Sonic 2 are the Special Stages. But don't make me say such a thing out loud, because Taxman is such a good friend, I like him so much, and he has done so much already! />/> />/>

I can point to a number of spots in Sonic CD where my timing fails where it wouldn't normally fail in the sega CD release. Whether it's physics or whatever, the point is the game isn't 100% accurate with regards to how the Sega CD version plays, and it significantly alters some of my level-to-level strategies.

EDIT: And this isn't meant to be a knock on Tax, just an admission that the games play differently.

This post has been edited by Cooljerk: 24 June 2014 - 02:39 PM

[Black Squirrel]

Falk, on 24 June 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

So essentially you're saying -you- could have talked to the S2HD team a year ago and didn't.

Strictly speaking there was no Sonic 2 HD team to talk to a year ago, because the project was dead. People were willing in to step with the programming shortly after the mess surrounding that last release, but they were turned away because moral was so low at that point. You've got to have motivated artists too!

[steveswede]

I'm getting the impression that some people think that accurate physics should mean physics mimicked with all the flaws intact from the 16bit games. I'm going to have to start using the term traditional physics or something that implies that what I want to see are controls that feel right but also welcome changes that were a problem for the 16 bit games, like Sonic flying off a edge when running on a outer 180° bend, which the remake of Sonic CD fixed. If Sonic 2HD delivers physics to that standard then I would be happy. I'll never understand people's anal need to get them that perfect to the 16bit games, being that restrictive serves no real benefit to future titles.

This post has been edited by steveswede: 24 June 2014 - 03:14 PM

[Hez]

Shouldn't this be in the Fan-Game forum? I feel like its glory doesn't come from the game itself, but all the people bitching and complaining. This project is what it is and should be categorized correctly.

[Falk]

I've always seen the fan game forum as someone starting a thread to discuss/promote/etc -their- fan-game. (BTS thread doesn't count lalalalal) This does seem more of a news item than that strict usage, despite being news about a fan game.

[winterhell]

After 2 years a text announcement with nothing to show for it? This is even more anticlimactic than the countdown for the trailer.
Aren't you just fishing to see what peoples' reactions would be.

[Endri]

steveswede, on 24 June 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

I'm getting the impression that some people think that accurate physics should mean physics mimicked with all the flaws intact from the 16bit games. I'm going to have to start using the term traditional physics or something that implies that what I want to see are controls that feel right but also welcome changes that were a problem for the 16 bit games, like Sonic flying off a edge when running on a outer 180° bend, which the remake of Sonic CD fixed. If Sonic 2HD delivers physics to that standard then I would be happy. I'll never understand people's anal need to get them that perfect to the 16bit games, being that restrictive serves no real benefit to future titles.

That's why I strictly said that I approve of perfectly accurate physics (and, feel), but I disapprove of emulating the flaws the original games had. If anything, a new engine should be preferably improving over the original Genesis engine, whenver possible. And, by the way, not really related to this in any way, but your music submissions were one of the good things of the original Sonic 2 HD project.

Hez, on 24 June 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Shouldn't this be in the Fan-Game forum? I feel like its glory doesn't come from the game itself, but all the people bitching and complaining. This project is what it is and should be categorized correctly.

As GeneHF and Falk said, for it to be on the fan game subforum, it would require the actual fan game team to go and open the discussion topic themselves. But I understand what you are saying: this is exactly what gives it the repercussion it receives.

[steveswede]

Endri, on 24 June 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

That's why I strictly said that I approve of perfectly accurate physics (and, feel), but I disapprove of emulating the flaws the original games had. If anything, a new engine should be preferably improving over the original Genesis engine, whenver possible. And, by the way, not really related to this in any way, but your music submissions were one of the good things of the original Sonic 2 HD project.

Oh what I said wasn't aimed at anyone specifically as a form of criticism, it was just an observation of people's definition of accurate physics. You had to explain in lengthy detail what you meant by accurate which made me realize that I should make the effort to avoid using "accurate" when taking about physics that are not like for like and use something like "traditional" to avoid confusion and lengthy explanations.

BTW thanks for the comment on my music, I'm glad to know you appreciated it.

This post has been edited by steveswede: 24 June 2014 - 04:37 PM

[Cooljerk]

The sort of inadequacies I'm talking about aren't really inherent flaws that aren't being emulated. I'm speaking more of stuff like not being able to time travel out of the underground loop in Palmtree Panic act 1 because you hit the ground before you'd trigger the warp like you did in the original. That's not a flaw, but it is an inaccuracy. I know, I know, the problem there is that the time travel time takes too long compared to the original, not that the physics are off. My point was that even the greats like Tax don't get it all 100% correct all the time, hence strengthening Endri's skepticism. I'm actually agreeing with him.