[Azukara]

Aerosol, on 16 April 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Solution: Tweak how the boost works.

Yes, but how? Are we talking as if it should be nerfed? Because the only way I can really see it being nerfed while still being a pretty purposeful move is if it drained a lot quicker, but that'd only make it more frustrating whenever the game design feels like it's punishing you if you're not going fast.

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Solution: Refine controls at low speeds and open up the level design.

But what is there to refine that doesn't interfere with how Sonic moves at high speeds? Otherwise Sonic is gonna have two different control schemes for different speed-tiers, and that kind of disjunction only really makes it less cohesive feeling. Granted, I know where you're coming from and I get it, but Sonic already accelerates so quickly on the ground without boost that tightening his movement at that speed would make it twitchy, and slowing his accel / top speed without boost would only make the difference between non-boost and boost movement all the more staggering.

As for opening up the level design, that just kinda removes the focus a bit if the controls are centric towards blasting off straight forward. From what I've played, boosting away in some custom stage in Generations that has more open paths isn't very interesting, since the mechanics don't really do anything interesting with Sonic's movement. It's basically moving one speed straight forward, and if you widen out the play area, the easier it is for the player to realize there's not much more going on than that.

Granted, you could always heavily alter the boost to be something more dynamic, not-so-instant and being more based around momentum building, but wouldn't that defeat the point of defending the boost?

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This is why I'm against calling it a dead end. You have valid complaints, but then you stop short of saying "if they were to do this again, this is how I'd change it". Instead, you write off the whole thing. I've gotten bored of the formula for some of the exact same reasons but I would be stoked if they were going to give it another shot. I mean look here.

The Adventure formula had issues. Moving at speed was a clusterfuck. Boost formula worked better for that, but didn't lend itself to the slower gameplay that the Adventure formula excelled at. So Adventure has flaws, and Boost has flaws, but Boost is the only one that's the dead end? It's the only one that's completely irredeemable? I don't understand the logic.

The Adventure formula really just required slightly tighter steering the faster you went instead of jerking you everywhere. Besides that, the Spin Dash not needing to be so instantaneous, and not needing a hundred moves on one button, I can't really complain about it's mechanics or what it offered since it was based on the classics and thus felt really solid (besides the occasional glitchy ass collision, which is a fault of the programming and not the style of gameplay).

Snappy and smooth platformer controls based around natural speed-building and slope interaction just lends itself to moving as fast or as slow as it needs to be, giving it a depth that I feel holds it's ground much better. Meanwhile boost gameplay is built mechanically around rocketing off at one speed and one speed only, so I feel like it's much harder to refine it without it becoming something totally different in the process. And if you're okay with it becoming something completely different, then that's cool, but I feel like that might not be the point.

This post has been edited by Azukara: 16 April 2015 - 02:54 PM

[JaredAFX]

On the subject of boost gameplay, I agree with the side Aerosol and Josh seem to be on: yes, the boost gameplay does have some clear flaws and people such as Azukara do have legitimate criticisms. However, that doesn't mean that it's a dead end. It means that there's room to build upon and I think if Sonic Team had a couple more tries at the formula we could have had a be-all end-all boost game.



On a different subject, concerning a new style of gameplay:

Azukara, on 16 April 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

And honestly if we're gonna talk about Sega sticking to what works and needing consistency like Nintendo does, why don't we go back to the original / Adventure approach? Mario may have changed a good bit when going to 3D, but the basics (acrobatics, heavy emphasis on object physics, power ups, and collectables) never went away; in fact they were further explored on. Same with Zelda (big maps, puzzly dungeons, lots of weapons and swordplay), same with Metroid, so on so forth. How come when it gets to Sonic, we take the basics and just throw them out the window just because the first few tries were glitchy or something?

This, in a sense. I think most of us here have watched the currently available part of ShayMay's Sonic retrospective, right? In this video he says "Sonic doesn't work in 3D Sonic hasn't worked in 3D." I don't necessarily agree with every other thing he says, but I think it's important to focus on this. Yes, since even Sonic Adventure, the first true 3D platforming Sonic game, the style of gameplay has not matched a "2D Sonic in 3D;" rather it and every subsequent style is its own kind of thing. What is that translation of 2D concepts into 3D? That's not really for me to dive into, but I think that's the cause of the problem. (It also doesn't help that the fanbase is so segmented because of all the different styles over the years, so realistically we will never get a true "2D Sonic in 3D" because at least one section of the fanbase will lash out at it.)

[Aerosol]

Azukara, on 16 April 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Yes, but how? Are we talking as if it should be nerfed? Because the only way I can really see it being nerfed while still being a pretty purposeful move is if it drained a lot quicker, but that'd only make it more frustrating whenever the game design feels like it's punishing you if you're not going fast.

But what is there to refine that doesn't interfere with how Sonic moves at high speeds? Otherwise Sonic is gonna have two different control schemes for different speed-tiers, and that kind of disjunction only really makes it less cohesive feeling. Granted, I know where you're coming from and I get it, but Sonic already accelerates so quickly on the ground without boost that tightening his movement at that speed would make it twitchy, and slowing his accel / top speed without boost would only make the difference between non-boost and boost movement all the more staggering.

I can't answer these questions because I don't have the answers. But the possibilities are there, and that's all I want to illustrate. Just because you can't think of a way for the boost gameplay to work better, doesn't mean there isn't a way for it to work better.

[DigitalDuck]

Since this is now about "How to improve Unleashed-style gameplay", let me throw in my two cents:


Personally, I thought Unleashed was the best of the three when it came to Daytime gameplay. Yes, there were too many of the "oh look it's those three robot things time to quickstep for a full minute" sections, and while I like the QTEs, they don't particularly fit. However, what it didn't do that I felt harmed the others, was try to shoehorn traditional platforming in. The platforming doesn't complement the boost mechanic, it overrides it, and you're left with a game split into sections that require two entirely different skill sets, thus feeling like two entirely different games.

While one solution would be to throw out the boost gameplay and focus on the platforming (essentially the "Let's go back to Adventure and try again!" solution), let's do the opposite. Let's throw out the platforming and focus on the boost gameplay.

After all, Colourationleashed (that doesn't work; I'll call it Unleashed/Colours/Generations, or UCG) isn't a traditional platformer. It's a racing platformer. Instead of focussing on platforming, it's centred around a limited boost mechanic, jumping between paths, and navigating an environment to get to the end of a level as quickly as possible.


With that in mind, which games should we look at for inspiration to improve/innovate Boost!Sonic gameplay?

How about Nitronic Rush and Distance (Refract Studios)? Where UCG are racing platformers, NRD are platform racers. NRD is centred around a limited boost mechanic, jumping between paths, and navigating an environment to get to the end of a level as quickly as possible.

Sound familiar? Good. All of these games are at the intersection of platforming and racing; and share many level mechanics too (NR has a section where a road fills with rolling spiked barrels that closely resembles the similar section in Rooftop Ruin, for example).

So what can Boost!Sonic take from NRD? I'll posit a few things and try to solve problems with them as I go:

A1. Death. When your car is destroyed in NRD, it is immediately returned to the last checkpoint, with the timer still running. (When I play, it happens a lot.) There is no limit on how often you can die. The lives system is an incredibly outdated concept for a game with a save system that only puts you back at the start of the level when you game over anyway, and only serves to frustrate the player by making them repeat a large portion of the level whenever they fail one section a few times. Instead, reinforce the idea that death does not impede progress, it only affects your scores; death happens.

To keep death relevant, see B1.


A2. Boost availability. No, not less. NRD's boost system effectively gives you full boost at the start, as well as whenever you go through a checkpoint or die, and also refills slowly over time or when you do tricks. Since boosting is the main mechanic of the game, and progress is slow without boost, an expert player should be able to boost his way through the entire level without running out. While UCG has generally managed this, there are usually situations in which the boost dries up. I feel the boost should regenerate, allowing the player to get back in the game quickly, and perhaps have multiple attempts at reaching a high path or similar scenarios.


A3. Game modes. NRD, like many racers, has time trials, multiplayer races, etc. If we're going to have a racing platformer, we should let people race. Consider catch up mechanics (e.g. the leading player burns through boost more quickly etc.), include a replay system... essentially, the multiplayer lobby should resemble that of a racing game. The goals could vary (see B1), but the basic scenario is the same.


A4. Custom content. NRD comes with its own level editor, allowing users to create and share their own levels using the content available in the game. Most of the games played in Distance (although still in alpha) are played on custom tracks. Custom levels have extended the life of Generations PC significantly, and this is with user-created mod tools. Investing in making a proper editor with a hub that allows the levels to be shared and played would reduce the number/amount of original levels as well.

But there's no need to stick to NRD. A few other suggestions:

B1. Scoring. Sonic Colours is probably my favourite game of the three despite enjoying the actual gameplay least. Part of this is through offering the Egg Shuttle, which means I can just play through the entire game in one go; part of this is the deliciously broken Super Sonic, which is how Super Sonic should be; but a good amount of it is the scoring system. It's flawed - it focusses on Wisp usage far too much - but it means that earning an S-rank isn't as simple as playing through the game as you normally would. It also keeps track of your best score, time, and rings...

... so let's separate them and make them three separate targets. Within every level, if you score 50000 points, finish within 2:30, or collect more than 250 rings (numbers used purely for illustrative purposes), you receive a bonus of some kind. Maybe hitting all three targets (not necessarily on the same playthrough) earns a Chaos emerald, with the obvious Super Sonic reward for collecting all seven.

Multiplayer could be set up in order to do best in one of these three targets, or even all three (a la Sonic 2).


B2. Traditional platforming. So, it doesn't fit in our "new" Sonic. But we don't have to throw it away - instead, make it a separate game. Could be a (2D) Sonic 5 or a (3D) Sonic Adventure 3 (or both) separate from the UCG games; could be a spinoff with Tails, Knuckles, or Amy (if Captain Toad can get his own game, so can Amy); could be an entirely different franchise altogether. It could be alternated with UCG, or given to a different team, or UCG could be given to a different team etc. - but there's no reason having one style of game needs to preclude others.

None of these dramatically change the main gameplay; at most they are additional modes or tweaks. What needs to be accepted is that this is NOT Sonic the Hedgehog as known in 1991; so instead of holding it to the gameplay ideals of those games, focus on making it good in its own right.



... That post just kept going. More than a thousand words? I didn't even include the big bit about exploration...

[Azukara]

A game like that could be a lot of fun and I'd probably love it even, but I really wouldn't want that to be the norm for the series from then on. And considering how tired I am of the gameplay switching up every game or two, yeaaaah I'm not really too interested in gameplay styles that won't be long lasting. (Unless this was fully intended to be spinoff material like some racer, then ayyyy.)

Inconsistency is one of Sonic's biggest issues, and it's the same reason I'd rather not see different styles segregated into multiple simultaneously going chunks. I've always found that to be really dumb, even if it sort of worked for what Generations was.

This post has been edited by Azukara: 16 April 2015 - 11:46 PM

[RGamer2009]

All this talk on what works and what doesn't work has once again reminded me on what I envision a perfected 3D Sonic game to work like.

In involves taking the best of both styles that worked, the Adventure style where you could explore around using momentum and platforming, and Unleashed/Colors/Generations (UCG) style which gave you that sense of speed Sonic is known for.

The gameplay works like this. We have a hub like in Adventure, but not just any kind of hub. This hub is HUGE, a gigantic plain sprawling with hills, lakes, badniks, trees, and rock formations abound. Think Hyrule Field from Zelda but on an even more massive scale. Sonic can run anywhere in this field, there are no boundaries except the rock formations that are too large to cross. The hub is shaped like a wheel, with various "Spokes" or paths on the sides of the central hub leading outward. At the hub, you can see various landmarks surrounding it. Perhaps a large mountain on one section catches your eye. You can run all the way to and UP that mountain. Leaving the hub towards the mountain does not have a cutscene or a loading screen at all. The Classic Heads Up Display (HUD) shows up on the corners and the Title Card flashes as you are running towards this mountain, "Crevice Canyon Zone".

You now in a proper Sonic Zone. The level design starts to get more linear here, and follows Sonic conventions with Springs, loops, platforms, badniks, level gimmicks, you name it! There would be 2 Acts to reach the "destination" at the end of the spoke, where an Eggman battle or event would take place to continue the story. The way I would set it up would allow some areas to be accessible in any order, while others need certain abilities to reach (like the Wall Run for instance), thus keeping the difficulty curve in check.

Like I said earlier, the gameplay is a mix of the Adventure and UCG styles. Sonic moves like Adventure to start with. Control for him is very good and you can get a good bit of speed should you run long enough. In this mode you still have true control, so lets call this Low Gear. Once Sonic reaches his top speed in Low Gear by running in a direction long enough you will see "Boost Lines" around Sonic, and a button prompt appears on the bottom corner of the screen letting you know you can now "switch gears". This is where the Boost gameplay returns. Now you can hit X as in the UCG games, and Sonic will blast forward at double the speed, lets call this mode High Gear. It functions more similarly to Boost gameplay, using drifts and quick steps to move with some differences. Sonic can still steer himself, but not nearly as well. You will not collect rings automatically and you cannot ram things in this mode any longer, you will take damage. You must roll to attack instead.

Wait... that word. ROLL. The staple of Sonic gameplay! Yes, the rolling mechanic is in full effect here, and is used to damage enemies as is standard in Sonic games. Using it in Boost mode will cancel boost mode and slow Sonic down, but allow Sonic to not take damage and attack enemies in return. You can transition from roll to boost quickly if you are smart about it, meaning you don't have to lose too much speed to attack, but Boost is no longer an instant win button. There is a risk to going super fast, you can get hurt if you do not react soon enough to roll. The Spin Dash would be back and work as usual in Low Gear. You could even use the Spin Dash to reach the speed needed to trigger High Gear faster. Rolling would be momentum based and some hills could allow Sonic to reach new secret areas. Who knows? Maybe the Chaos Emeralds are hidden around somewhere...

Just my thoughts anyway. I haven't even mentioned that once completing the game the first time, Tails and Knuckles would be unlocked and playable, with their own secrets to find in the levels...

[High Fidelity]

RGamer2009, on 17 April 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

All this talk on what works and what doesn't work has once again reminded me on what I envision a perfected 3D Sonic game to work like.

In involves taking the best of both styles that worked, the Adventure style where you could explore around using momentum and platforming, and Unleashed/Colors/Generations (UCG) style which gave you that sense of speed Sonic is known for.

The gameplay works like this. We have a hub like in Adventure, but not just any kind of hub. This hub is HUGE, a gigantic plain sprawling with hills, lakes, badniks, trees, and rock formations abound. Think Hyrule Field from Zelda but on an even more massive scale. Sonic can run anywhere in this field, there are no boundaries except the rock formations that are too large to cross. The hub is shaped like a wheel, with various "Spokes" or paths on the sides of the central hub leading outward. At the hub, you can see various landmarks surrounding it. Perhaps a large mountain on one section catches your eye. You can run all the way to and UP that mountain. Leaving the hub towards the mountain does not have a cutscene or a loading screen at all. The Classic Heads Up Display (HUD) shows up on the corners and the Title Card flashes as you are running towards this mountain, "Crevice Canyon Zone".

You now in a proper Sonic Zone. The level design starts to get more linear here, and follows Sonic conventions with Springs, loops, platforms, badniks, level gimmicks, you name it! There would be 2 Acts to reach the "destination" at the end of the spoke, where an Eggman battle or event would take place to continue the story. The way I would set it up would allow some areas to be accessible in any order, while others need certain abilities to reach (like the Wall Run for instance), thus keeping the difficulty curve in check.

Like I said earlier, the gameplay is a mix of the Adventure and UCG styles. Sonic moves like Adventure to start with. Control for him is very good and you can get a good bit of speed should you run long enough. In this mode you still have true control, so lets call this Low Gear. Once Sonic reaches his top speed in Low Gear by running in a direction long enough you will see "Boost Lines" around Sonic, and a button prompt appears on the bottom corner of the screen letting you know you can now "switch gears". This is where the Boost gameplay returns. Now you can hit X as in the UCG games, and Sonic will blast forward at double the speed, lets call this mode High Gear. It functions more similarly to Boost gameplay, using drifts and quick steps to move with some differences. Sonic can still steer himself, but not nearly as well. You will not collect rings automatically and you cannot ram things in this mode any longer, you will take damage. You must roll to attack instead.

Wait... that word. ROLL. The staple of Sonic gameplay! Yes, the rolling mechanic is in full effect here, and is used to damage enemies as is standard in Sonic games. Using it in Boost mode will cancel boost mode and slow Sonic down, but allow Sonic to not take damage and attack enemies in return. You can transition from roll to boost quickly if you are smart about it, meaning you don't have to lose too much speed to attack, but Boost is no longer an instant win button. There is a risk to going super fast, you can get hurt if you do not react soon enough to roll. The Spin Dash would be back and work as usual in Low Gear. You could even use the Spin Dash to reach the speed needed to trigger High Gear faster. Rolling would be momentum based and some hills could allow Sonic to reach new secret areas. Who knows? Maybe the Chaos Emeralds are hidden around somewhere...

Just my thoughts anyway. I haven't even mentioned that once completing the game the first time, Tails and Knuckles would be unlocked and playable, with their own secrets to find in the levels...

The first part sounds awesome!

Although I reckon boost has had it's day. Scrap it. It's not a good enough gameplay mechanic. If it was we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So I think, the first part of your idea (the sprawling landscape - even better if geometric & other worldly) and use the environment to gain momentum/speed instead of pressing a button. Beautifully simple.

Imagine slowly climbing (platforming) up that mountain, defeating enemies & avoiding traps on the way, then the sense of wonder of speeding down it on the other side, gaining enough momentum to speed up a chain to the little planet

[Aerosol]

High Fidelity, on 17 April 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Although I reckon boost has had it's day. Scrap it. It's not a good enough gameplay mechanic. If it was we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Considering the fanbase we're a part of, I'm just going to go ahead and say your logic here is flawed.

[High Fidelity]

Aerosol, on 17 April 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

High Fidelity, on 17 April 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Although I reckon boost has had it's day. Scrap it. It's not a good enough gameplay mechanic. If it was we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Considering the fanbase we're a part of, I'm just going to go ahead and say your logic here is flawed.

Fair enough, I am a classic Sonic fanboy after all. I just find the boost gameplay too far removed from what I enjoyed about Sonic in the first place, which was using rolling physics to explore a surreal and graphically inspiring landscape.

[Lobotomy]

I'm going to spout a bit of an unpopular opinion: On a superficial level, there's usually not much wrong with bad Sonic games. It's those couple of things they get super fundamentally wrong that turns the whole thing to shit. Sonic Heroes had bad materials and ice skating physics, had it played more like a faster SA2, it would have been pretty good. Sonic '06 needed to stop trying so hard, and could have used another 6 months of dev time. Sonic Lost World is slow, and needed a bit more refinement. The storybook games needed other controller support. Sonic Colors needed slopes.
"My friend Aaron said it best, we're all only two or three bad decisions away from becoming the ones who we fear and pity."

STJrInuyasha, on 06 December 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

(Sonic 4 stuff ahead; you knew this was coming, didn't you)
Generations screws up ramp physics and momentum completely and requires basic event triggers to change the player's momentum to make everything look right, and it still can't get it right all the time.

In fairness, that's mostly because they didn't make Modern Sonic heavy enough, along with the fact that he's pretty fuckin' hardcoded between being in midair/on the ground. I've changed his gravity, jump power, drag rate, etc, removed the launch triggers, and while it wasn't the most playable thing in the world, it still felt a bit right.

This post has been edited by Lobotomy: 26 April 2015 - 08:49 AM

[Dude]

I don't think the problem here is with Sonic Team, or any other developer for that matter. I don't think SEGA will allow anyone to make a good Sonic game.

[DigitalDuck]

Dude, on 26 April 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

I don't think SEGA will allow anyone to make a good Sonic game.

The Sonic fanbase, ladies and gentlemen!

[Dude]

Of course you'd just mock instead of rebutting. Let's see you argue against it.

I'm serious. Yearly releases? Pushing the release dates even earlier? Letting someone new try building a game and it still comes out completely awfully? Inability to retain skilled workers?

The one thing these all have in common is damaging management decisions.

[DigitalDuck]

Dude, on 26 April 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Of course you'd just mock instead of rebutting. Let's see you argue against it.

My simplest argument against it is that there have been good Sonic games.

[Cyberguy]

DigitalDuck, on 26 April 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Dude, on 26 April 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Of course you'd just mock instead of rebutting. Let's see you argue against it.

My simplest argument against it is that there have been good Sonic games.

Natch. But Sega seems dead set on sabotaging their own efforts and constantly creating flaws that bring current Sonic games to mediocrity instead of universal acclaim. Dude was also speaking hyperbolically, so your simple argument is flawed. Even Sonic Generations and Colors had issues with Sega's insane development practices, and they're the closest things to universally "good" Sonic games in years.