[ICEknight]

Captain L, on 04 October 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Great episode, but I do have to question how the problem was the Genesis sound chip was the issue with Jackson, when his name was prominent in the credits of Moonwalker. I would think that he had a problem, he would have voiced it back then.

But, then again, that was way before the SNES had spoiled everybody with their sample-based instruments. I'm sure that must have had something to do with his views on the sound quality.

This post has been edited by ICEknight: 04 October 2013 - 06:00 PM

[The KKM]

ICEknight, on 04 October 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

What? Black or White was composed for Sonic 3 as well? I'm speechless. :O

I didn't know of these Pop Culture guys before, but... they rule.


EDIT: My guess is that Black or White was the original title theme.

No, at least if I got them right MJ offered SEGA the chance to use Black or White, but his lawyers said no. Black or White wasn't done for Sonic 3, he just thought it'd fit in.

@TimmiT- Good stuff, then. I'll give it a watch later.

@Captain L- I've no idea, but I'd assume Moonwalker didn't involve MJ directly- mostly just him saying "sure use the soundtrack for the film", while Sonic 3 was his first direct contact with composing directly with the sound chip.

[ICEknight]

The KKM, on 04 October 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

No, at least if I got them right MJ offered SEGA the chance to use Black or White, but his lawyers said no. Black or White wasn't done for Sonic 3, he just thought it'd fit in.

But... they had already made a chip version of it and all according to the video, so I assume they knew where it was going to be used.

EDIT I hadn't checked the release date of Black or White against Sonic 3's, you're right. =|

This post has been edited by ICEknight: 04 October 2013 - 06:12 PM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Right, so I believe in Roger Hector.

This anonymous source is a bit shifty- I'm under the impression that people who were working on the project and who may have been close to Michael (and looking to defend him) or were misinformed for whatever reason about his parting believe that he left because he didn't like the sound quality. We're told things like "It's just my guess" and "I think" rather than they actually know.

Right, so get this; I'm being told that Michael Jackson was a huge fan of Sonic The Hedgehog, of which there were two previous games in the series, as well as having his own game... and only realised that he didn't like the quality of sound coming from the Mega Drive until after he'd made all the tracks to the game!? That is pretty difficult for me to swallow frankly, and I don't believe it.

I'm also aware through being a bit of a fan of MJ that he was pretty stubborn with his music if he felt the sound wasn't right and could be difficult to work with as he was a perfectionist, but Sonic 3's soundtrack has always been highly praised, and even now you would find it difficult to argue that the quality of the soundtrack isn't fantastic, decent quality for the Mega Drive or catchy as hell.

What's more, the timing of the scandal (mid 1993) fits perfectly with the development timeline of Sonic 3. The only proto's we have for Sonic 3 are dated early '94 when the game was close to completion though, so who knows when the music was reworked.

Now, here's some more food for thought;

Michael Jackson is credited as "Zones 2 and 3" for the game. This is music that I think sounds the least like Michael Jackson's music along with Angel Island, so was it reworked by someone else, taken out completely, or was this the reason Michael Jackson was unhappy?

Obviously, music like S3 Credits (Stranger in Moscow) and Carnival Night (Jam) are pretty much identical to the Michael Jackson songs, but as it's been revealed, he didn't create them, it was other composers who did that for him, which is why they were able to be left in the game.

Lastly, Sonic 3 as we all know was to be one game and had to be split in to two. Is it possible that if MJ really did have to pull the plug on his music (of which we know he was meant to do pretty much every track to the game) that extended time had to be spent recreating the music, and thus being the cause of the game having to be split to avoid delay in release?

[The KKM]

I don't think it's so farfetched he'd dislike the sound chip- one thing is what he heard as a player, maybe going "this sounds cool but rough", I don't know, speculating as much as you here; Then when he gets to be on the "producing" side, he realises that it wasn't the fault of the musicians but the material himself, or he previously liked it but upon experiencing it as a tool grew to dislike how what he imagined didn't translate correctly to what the console output. The perspectives of a passive appreciator and an active creator are always different.

[Mecha Sally]

The KKM, on 04 October 2013 - 06:41 PM, said:

<br/>I don't think it's so farfetched he'd dislike the sound chip- one thing is what he heard as a player, maybe going "this sounds cool but rough", I don't know, speculating as much as you here; Then when he gets to be on the "producing" side, he realises that it wasn't the fault of the musicians but the material himself, or he previously liked it but upon experiencing it as a tool grew to dislike how what he imagined didn't translate correctly to what the console output. The perspectives of a passive appreciator and an active creator are always different.<br/>

  This.  Michael was known to be a perfectionist, so it's understandable that he would be frustrated with quality issues.  If the quality of the sound chip made it impossible for him to realize his vision, then he probably saw no point to continue.  He probably didn't want his name to be associated with a product that was "inferior" to his other works, especially considering how his reputation was even before the scandals.  I can't help but wonder what things might've been like if Sonic 3 was released on Sega CD, where they could have used CD quality music that would have allowed him more flexibility.  I'm sure it would've been incredible.   

SpeedStarTMQ said:

Michael Jackson is credited as "Zones 2 and 3" for the game. This is music that I think sounds the least like Michael Jackson's music along with Angel Island, so was it reworked by someone else, taken out completely, or was this the reason Michael Jackson was unhappy?

  Maybe the zones were originally in a different order?  Or perhaps those levels were original compositions and he didn't like them?

This post has been edited by Mecha Sally: 04 October 2013 - 07:31 PM

[muteKi]

If MJ really did have a problem with the sound quality on that thing, then why did they even bother making Moonwalker?

[Master Emerald]

Quote

No, at least if I got them right MJ offered SEGA the chance to use Black or White, but his lawyers said no. Black or White wasn't done for Sonic 3, he just thought it'd fit in.

Black & White could have been made into Azure Lake. The supporting chords fit anyway.

Quote

If MJ really did have a problem with the sound quality on that thing, then why did they even bother making Moonwalker?

Well Moonwalker was made before Sonic 1... Games didn't sound that good back then.

This post has been edited by Master Emerald: 04 October 2013 - 08:05 PM

[ICEknight]

Mecha Sally, on 04 October 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

 

SpeedStarTMQ said:

Michael Jackson is credited as "Zones 2 and 3" for the game. This is music that I think sounds the least like Michael Jackson's music along with Angel Island, so was it reworked by someone else, taken out completely, or was this the reason Michael Jackson was unhappy?

  Maybe the zones were originally in a different order?

If Sonic 1 is anything to go by, 2 might have been initially planned as the ruins level (Marble Garden), and 3 as the "pinball zone" (Carnival Night).

[Neo]

It is entirely possible that MJ actually composed music for Hydrocity and Marble Garden and those ended up being the tracks that got replaced. The songs we consider "MJ tracks" might have actually been produced by his team of musicians who had worked for several years with him, hence all the observable similarities to his existing work.

[Metal Man88]

Sounds like this issue remains nothing but rampant speculation, outside of "Michael Jackson, at some point, was involved, then at another was not. Various tracks were shuffled around and nobody knows who. Here, let's revisit the confusion."

I think we'll never know the truth, only that what could have been fell through and we only have the remnants that were indirectly related but not 100% MJ's.

[GeneHF]

Honestly, my only interest is learning who composed which track as they're heard in the final. We only know a very small handful (Senoue and Drossin) but the rest remain enigmatic.

As it stands, until whatever lingering issues left are resolved, if they ever are, we won't be seeing S3 get a similar soundtrack re-release like Sonic 1, 2, and CD got. And while it's still far too soon to even reach this point (Sonic 2 mobile has yet to surface), this is also likely to impede Sonic 3 from joining the other Taxman projects.

Basically, until further developments, your best bet for a great Sonic 3 experience is to either play the game as-is or grab Tiddles' Complete hack.

[Skyler]

muteKi, on 04 October 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

If MJ really did have a problem with the sound quality on that thing, then why did they even bother making Moonwalker?

This is my only real issue with everything. I can't imagine him being okay with his own songs being converted to 16-bit, but then not wanting original compositions made for the platform to be released (under his name, at least).


So what we've got now are three possible explanations on what happened:

1. MJ left before the scandals because he was unhappy with the YM2612.

2. Same as a above, but the reason given around the office and to the public was because of the scandals so that they didn't make the YM2612 look bad.

3. MJ was booted solely because of the scandals.


I honestly have no clue, and at this point I just want to know who did what specifically.

GeneHF, on 04 October 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

As it stands, until whatever lingering issues left are resolved, if they ever are, we won't be seeing S3 get a similar soundtrack re-release like Sonic 1, 2, and CD got. And while it's still far too soon to even reach this point (Sonic 2 mobile has yet to surface), this is also likely to impede Sonic 3 from joining the other Taxman projects.

There's always the chance of using the S&K Collection songs. I know not everyone would like it, but it'd be the best way to get around the legal issues.

This post has been edited by Skyler: 05 October 2013 - 01:21 AM

[Retroman]

Step 1. Go open FL Studio
Step 2. Import midi of 'Black and White'
Step 3. Replace each instrument with Sega Genesis sounds
???
Profit!

[Tiddles]

The original level order could have been different, but I tend to doubt it. If you look at Sonic 1, all the internal level IDs reflect the originally intended order. If you look at Sonic 2, they're all over the place compared to the final order. But if you look at Sonic 3, they are all in final gameplay order, except for Flying Battery. In other words, there's no evidence anywhere to suggest any other change in intended level order, and reasonable circumstantial evidence to suggest there wasn't.