[dsrb]

I'm not going to get into whatever argument you two apparently have. I've not seen a need to rewire my cables, which were needed for PAL systems too at the time anyway. And I appreciate everyone providing info, so there's no need to get so possessive.

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

You can use a pal scart cable with a Japanese Saturn, but it will either work in only composite, or it will go apeshit and randomly switch between composite and rgb, or it might just work. The c-sync signal, to which the RGB selection pin is wired in PAL Scart cables, is not a stable direct current voltage required by the Scart/Peritel standard (it has to be between 1-3 volts; the c-sync signal does not always reach that, so you have problems).
Some TVs might still work in RGB with it, if they ignore the standard and force RGB on certain ports, or have RGB selectable instead of automatically switching, etc... Also, some scart switchers actually add the required voltage there.

I found no drawbacks aside from the interlacing, which I assume is separate. Obviously I had to switch to RGB SCART input manually, but that's to be expected.

Quote

I'm not sure why your Trinitrons displayed the 240p signals properly; there are quite a lot Trinitron models out there, some may work fine, others might not. I know that the Sony projector I have from ~2000 can't do 240p and displays the interlaced signal, unlike modern TVs it does not force deinterlacing.

And other CRTs, is it normal that they wouldn't display 240p fine? As I said, I don't remember the same TVs having such problems with PAL Saturns, so is that because they're 288p instead? I'm trying to deduce whether this was a problem with that NTSC-J Saturn as an individual unit, or if it's to be expected from most [edit] PAL [/edit] TVs running any 240p signal. I think your post might be indicating the latter, but I'm not certain.

Again, I appreciate any info here, so let's not start a pointless argument unless someone posts something that's obviously BS, which I've seen none of.

This post has been edited by dsrb: 09 August 2013 - 08:14 PM

[Meat Miracle]

CRTs should all display 240p fine as far as I know...
Do note that quite a bunch of Saturn games actually do output 480i; they run in high-resolution. Virtua Fighter 2 being the most popular example. PAL machines have an option to output 512 lines (either as 256 progressive or 512 interlaced), some PAL games were optimized for that (again VF2 comes to mind, but many big-name titles did it too).
Maybe you just tested your PAL machine with such a game, to get interlacing on a CRT?

Aside from the c-sync/9v pin on the a/v out, there should not be any difference between any Saturn model as far as the video output goes, especially not concerning interlacing. The only difference is that PAL machines have a 256/512 line mode, but you can do that on a NTSC machine too, it's entirely controlled by the VDP2. In fact if your machine has the 50hz switch, it is already capable of this.

Quote

All have seen mixed results with the full spectrum of video modes available through SCART. With the Goodmans, 50Hz would only output in monochrome. With the Murphy, it would display in colour but be very erratic, having a brief "spasm" every few seconds or so, which is noticeable enough to make it unuseable for proper gaming. And with the Samsung, it would display in very washed out or oversaturated colours and look generally ghastly, and the output would still be unstable and try to reset itself often.

The monochrome signal is because the TV is using composite signal (it is not auto-selecting RGB mode), and it doesn't understand the 50hz NTSC colourburst signal (few devices do).
The Murphy is displaying RGB, but its spasming because the RGB select voltage is not proper, due to the aforementioned A/V connector difference between PAL and NTSC units.
The Samsung is reseting the signal for the same reason, I dunno if it's using RGB or composite with some weird colour mode autoselected.

You just need a rgb cable wired for a Japanese machine, or mod the console to output voltage instead of c-sync.

Oerg866, on 09 August 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

You know, it would be so much easier to just rewire the cable properly or do the small fix I linked instead of listening to all the half-knowledge Meat Miracle is spewing about

I'm interested in knowing what half-knowledge you refer to; I admit that I'm not up to snuff on how broadcast systems and CRTs work, but I at least know how a Saturn is wired.

What do you mean by rewiring SCART cables? If you use a PAL cables on a Japanese Saturn, you have no voltage pins taken from the Saturn side, so there is nothing to rewire inside the Scart plug.
The "small fix" you linked to means opening up the machine, de-soldering a decoupling cap, and thereby removing c-sync out and replacing it with a voltage pin. It is enough to get you RGB with a PAL Scart cable on a Japanese Saturn, but it will lose the ability of the machine to use c-sync, which some displays might actually need (some projectors can take 15khz RGB+c-sync inputs, and I've been told the XRGB Mini works better with that as well). Without that, you have to build a sync stripper that splits composite to c-sync. This is a potential drawback if you plan on using upscalers in the future. Of course it works as a quick and dirty fix if all you want is Scart RGB out for your TV.

This post has been edited by Meat Miracle: 09 August 2013 - 09:04 PM

[Oerg866]

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

/>

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Of course it works as a quick and dirty fix if all you want is Scart RGB out for your TV.

Finally. There you go.

PS: Ever heard of switches? For all intents and purposes you can use the QnD tracecut method with a switch depending on what you need, or as this is about RGB simply replace composhit video with C-Sync (or wire those two to a switch). Either way, it's not exactly high tech and done in 5 minutes tops.


PPS:

Quote

The monochrome signal is because the TV is using composite signal (it is not auto-selecting RGB mode), and it doesn't understand the 50hz NTSC colourburst signal (few devices do).

Actually no device that holds strictly to the standard colorburst frequencies (3.58/4.43) can understand that signal. NTSC-50 is actually a perfectly valid signal understood and processed by TVs and capture devices. The problem is that the colorburst is derived from a master clock that is different depending on the region, and if you change to 50Hz in a 60Hz-region system and 60Hz in a 50Hz-region system the frequency is neither of those two. Only extremely rare and expensive equipment which let you freely select the colorburst frequency will display such a signal with proper color.

There are a few signal types that these are commonly (*wrongly*) referred to. All of these exist as a standard (PAL-60, PAL-M and N, NTSC-4.43) and are not the signals you will get out of the console.

This post has been edited by Oerg866: 09 August 2013 - 10:45 PM

[Meat Miracle]

Well if you want to hack up your console you can fix the "problem" in a multitude of ways anyway, but I assume he bought a pre-modded console because he doesn't want to/know how to do that.

You can select 50/60hz mode on the VDP2, and colour encoding on the CXA video encoder separately - I hooked up a machine with switches on both, and tested all modes with both the 14.31 and a 17.72 master oscillators.
The signal a Japanese Saturn sends in 50hz mode would be, depending on whether they used JP1/2 or soldered to the lifted VDP2 pin: PAL, 3.58Mhz, 50hz, or NTSC, 3.58Mhz, 50hz. Neither produced composite colour on my Panasonic TV (P42G10E).
In fact the only setting that produced composite colour in both 50hz and 60hz was PAL + 4.43Mhz. I assume because the TV was compatible with the PAL60 they use in South America.

[MarzSyndrome]

Ok, is an upscaler such as XRGB likely what I need? As in it can handle NTSC50 *and* make the screen area in 60Hz mode fit on any TV properly, with no cutting-bits-off bullshit?

[Meat Miracle]

NTSC and PAL are both colour encodings. If you use RGB, you can get proper colour on any TV that supports it, since it does not encode colours, it just sends the R, G, B channels directly.

As for the cut-off parts, where does that happen? I'm asking because if you run a PAL optimized Saturn game in 60hz, it will have the bottom of the screen cut off.

[doc eggfan]

I haven't really read (or understood) anything in this thread, but I just bought my Japanese Saturn home and it works with my dvdo iscan pro v2 line doubler. Gets me reasonably decent 480p on my flat screen.

[MarzSyndrome]

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

The monochrome signal is because the TV is using composite signal (it is not auto-selecting RGB mode), and it doesn't understand the 50hz NTSC colourburst signal (few devices do).
The Murphy is displaying RGB, but its spasming because the RGB select voltage is not proper, due to the aforementioned A/V connector difference between PAL and NTSC units.
The Samsung is reseting the signal for the same reason, I dunno if it's using RGB or composite with some weird colour mode autoselected.

You just need a rgb cable wired for a Japanese machine, or mod the console to output voltage instead of c-sync.

I took part of your advice in my mind yesterday, and decided to fork out for one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.u...984.m1439.l2649

Hopefully that's exactly the sort of thing I'm after, right?

EDIT: Wait, reading up a bit more, I may need a converter cable as well, yes? Like this one for instance?

http://www.retrogami...-converter.html

This post has been edited by MarzSyndrome: 28 August 2013 - 09:03 AM

[Meat Miracle]

Those Scart cables oughta work, yes. However since they are third party, I cannot tell you how the quality will look - if they are not properly shielded cables, they might have so much interference that you are better off with composite.

RGB21 -> Scart converter is only needed for the official Sega branded RGB21 cable. RGB21 is like Scart but uses a different pinout. I'm leaning to think that the cable you linked to on ebay is Scart, not RGB21. But the signal output is the same so even if it IS RGB21, you can just open up the cable and rearrange the pins.

[Shadow Hog]

People I know who are hellbent on getting the best quality video out of their old gaming consoles swear by the SCART cables from retro_console_accessories on eBay, I find. She also says she can wire them up for JP21 at no additional charge.

This post has been edited by Shadow Hog: 29 August 2013 - 12:15 AM

[mentski]

Is there any reason you can't jump pin 8 to 16 (with a 100ohm resistor in between) in the SCART plug to trigger RGB mode instead of having to open up the Saturn and rewire a pin?

That's how Mega Drive RGB cables (and other consoles that don't have a dedicated voltage coming out of them for this type of thing) works.

Obviously disconnect the wire already coming from the Saturn to pin 16, because it's CSync, not voltage. In fact, if you wired that to pin 20 of the SCART instead of the comp video wire already attached to it, depending on your TV there's a chance you might get a better picture too.

(SCART Standard uses comp video to sync an RGB signal, but most TVs will take a raw sync signal from the pin instead if it's coming from the console with enough "oomph")

This post has been edited by mentski: 29 August 2013 - 06:46 PM

[Meat Miracle]

mentski, on 29 August 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Is there any reason you can't jump pin 8 to 16 (with a 100ohm resistor in between) in the SCART plug to trigger RGB mode instead of having to open up the Saturn and rewire a pin?

That's how Mega Drive RGB cables (and other consoles that don't have a dedicated voltage coming out of them for this type of thing) works.

Obviously disconnect the wire already coming from the Saturn to pin 16, because it's CSync, not voltage. In fact, if you wired that to pin 20 of the SCART instead of the comp video wire already attached to it, depending on your TV there's a chance you might get a better picture too.

(SCART Standard uses comp video to sync an RGB signal, but most TVs will take a raw sync signal from the pin instead if it's coming from the console with enough "oomph")

Because there is a difference in the a/v port between PAL and NTSC Saturns. NTSC Saturns output c-sync on the pin where PAL Saturns output +9/12v. The official SCART cables released in Europe are mapped to use that pin, so they only work on PAL consoles properly - on NTSC machines, they have c-sync connected to the RGB select pin, which is unstable at best.

[mentski]

Meat Miracle, on 30 August 2013 - 02:45 PM, said:

Because there is a difference in the a/v port between PAL and NTSC Saturns. NTSC Saturns output c-sync on the pin where PAL Saturns output +9/12v. The official SCART cables released in Europe are mapped to use that pin, so they only work on PAL consoles properly - on NTSC machines, they have c-sync connected to the RGB select pin, which is unstable at best.

Er... Yes. I understand that. I don't think you quite get my gist.

I'm saying instead of opening up a JP Saturn and rewiring the AV port so it outputs voltage instead of csync to make the PAL cable work, you can get a voltage line to trigger the RGB switch straight from the TV by jumping pin 16 (RGB Select) to pin 8 on the SCART end (with a 100ohm resistor in between).

That also gives you the bonus of still having a dedicated csync coming out of the Saturn that you can then use to sync the RGB signal instead of composite video, by connecting the wire previously connected to pin 16 (which would be the line supplying voltage out of a PAL Saturn, but out of a JP saturn, as you rightly say, is csync) to pin 20 in the SCART plug.

Do you see? That (should) make a PAL Saturn cable usable on a JP Saturn without any rewiring on the Saturn end, and keeps the valuable cysnc signal, which is better for syncing an RGB signal on many modern TVs and scalers.

(In fact, I'd bet my left bollock that that's EXACTLY how the 3rd party JP Saturn - SCART cables you get on Ebay are wired up)

This post has been edited by mentski: 30 August 2013 - 04:23 PM

[Meat Miracle]

Pin 8 & 16 are already joined on the Saturn SCART cable; both are fed from the 9v pin, with a resistor inbetween the two pins. They are input only pins, there is no outgoing signal from the TV in them.

The Megadrive outputs +5v and the RGB cables I have for it use that for RGB switching. They don't autoswitch to the video channel though, you need over 9v for that. PAL Saturns with the scart cables all auto switch to the channel.

This post has been edited by Meat Miracle: 30 August 2013 - 06:30 PM

[dsrb]

Shadow Hog, on 29 August 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

People I know who are hellbent on getting the best quality video out of their old gaming consoles swear by the SCART cables from retro_console_accessories on eBay, I find. She also says she can wire them up for JP21 at no additional charge.

Devil's advocate here!

I bought two cables from this seller, hoping it would fix my aforementioned problems with my aforementioned NTSC-J Saturn. Both provided pictures with huge distorted bands emanating from any hard-edged shapes and other problems. This occurred on various TVs. I tried both cables on my PAL Saturn into multiple TVs and got all the same problems

I eventually got a refund, but not without retro_console_accessories basically telling me that had never happened to anyone else and so I must be doing something wrong.

Considering how I controlled my tests with two cables, two Saturns, two regions, and at least three TVs, I find it hard to believe all of those things of mine had the same problem(s), whereas their cables were innocent.

Of course, any enlightenment that might explain the whole thing - and make me look like a silly ass - would be welcomed, but at least for now, I thought it was worth recording that not everyone has had a flawless experience with their products.