[MarzSyndrome]

So here's the gist. Since four years or so ago, I've possessed a modchipped Japanese Model 2 Sega Saturn with switchless modifications to adjust region and 50/60Hz output, purchased from Console Passion. I saw this as an ideal replacement for the old European Model 1 Saturn that was also modded, but only accepted original discs and not CD-Rs (oh, and used full-on switches as well).

Having recently got it out again, I noticed that the biggest problem was that I could not get 50Hz mode to work properly on either of the 3 HDTVs in our house that I've tested. There's the smallest one - the Goodmans GTVL20W7HD - then the "Murphy 32883 IDTV HD DVD" (so obscure it seems that I can't find anything resembling a website and/or a picture for it), and finally the big lounge one - the Samsung LE37S73BD. All have seen mixed results with the full spectrum of video modes available through SCART. With the Goodmans, 50Hz would only output in monochrome. With the Murphy, it would display in colour but be very erratic, having a brief "spasm" every few seconds or so, which is noticeable enough to make it unuseable for proper gaming. And with the Samsung, it would display in very washed out or oversaturated colours and look generally ghastly, and the output would still be unstable and try to reset itself often. I actually possess a fair amount of Saturn SCART cables acquired over the years, to the extent that I can't even tell if any of them were originally for the PAL Saturn. Yet regardless of which cable I use, I get the same disappointing results.

So googling around, I thought I'd try my luck with a SCART-to-HDMI converter box. I bought this one in particular, and tried it out for the first time today. I discovered that quite a fair amount of my cables wouldn't display anything through it, but a select few did, with one in particular displaying the best results ever....... provided I stick with 60Hz. Which leads to another problem I'll mention later. Anyhow, I tested this with the Goodmans and Murphy TVs to date since I am unable to access the Samsung TV for likely the rest of the evening. Neither of them could give a satisfactory 50Hz performance, even with the one awesome SCART cable I used. I'd literally see the screen for like a split second before the picture gives away and it desperately tries to get it back again, only to once again only last a split second. During the brief moments where it was visible, I could see that the Goodmans would still only be able to output it in monochrome even if it worked. Murphy on the other hand got it in colour. Overall, I can imagine that the "spasming" problem I mentioned before is affecting the TV/box enough for it to keep killing the display on a consistent basis.

Thinking about it, chances are all of this is an issue with the simple fact that my Saturn originates from Japan. Should I be trying to get proper Japanese output cables for it?


I should probably mention btw: the key reason why I'm not so keen on just doing everything through 60Hz is that I seem to encounter the "overscan" problem where bits of the top (and occasionally bottom) are cut off. The only thing I've tested this with to date has been the little Mario game included with the C4 2006 Contest CD (which you can find at The Iso Zone for those interested). I thought HDMI would allow the Murphy and Goodmans at least to adjust the screen position manually, but I guess that's a VGA-only thing. *sigh*

[dsrb]

Not to hijack your thread, but I had issues with my Japanese Saturn seemingly being 'deinterlaced' or something by all TVs, except two Sony Trinitron CRTs--despite the fact that it wasn't interlaced in the first place--which made it interlace horribly during movement. Have you seen anything like this? I've never heard any explanation of why this might have occurred, caused by the TV and/or the particular Saturn itself, so if people are going to get technical here, I'd appreciate if they could help with this question too.

[GerbilSoft]

MarzSyndrome, on 09 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

With the Goodmans, 50Hz would only output in monochrome. With the Murphy, it would display in colour but be very erratic, having a brief "spasm" every few seconds or so, which is noticeable enough to make it unuseable for proper gaming. And with the Samsung, it would display in very washed out or oversaturated colours and look generally ghastly, and the output would still be unstable and try to reset itself often. I actually possess a fair amount of Saturn SCART cables acquired over the years, to the extent that I can't even tell if any of them were originally for the PAL Saturn. Yet regardless of which cable I use, I get the same disappointing results.

This usually happens if you're using a composite video SCART cable, not an RGB SCART cable. The reason for this is because older consoles used a single crystal oscillator to derive all the frequencies used in the system, and this oscillator has to be an exact multiple of the color subcarrier. (NTSC is 3.579545 MHz, PAL is 4.43361875 MHz.) These subcarrier frequencies have to be super-precise; if it's off by even a tiny bit, you'll end up with either no color or unstable color, as you've mentioned. Solutions are to get an RGB SCART cable or to replace the oscillator with a PAL frequency oscillator. (Former's probably the better option.)

dsrb, on 09 August 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Not to hijack your thread, but I had issues with my Japanese Saturn seemingly being 'deinterlaced' or something by all TVs, except two Sony Trinitron CRTs--despite the fact that it wasn't interlaced in the first place--which made it interlace horribly during movement. Have you seen anything like this? I've never heard any explanation of why this might have occurred, caused by the TV and/or the particular Saturn itself, so if people are going to get technical here, I'd appreciate if they could help with this question too.

I have a Sony DSC-1024HD scan converter that does the exact same thing. The problem is some TV manufacturers think that "240p" never existed, so they automatically assume that 15 kHz is interlaced. Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to fix this. (Interestingly, I also have a Sony PVM-20M4U professional CRT that handles 15 kHz non-interlaced just fine.)

This post has been edited by GerbilSoft: 09 August 2013 - 01:01 PM

[MarzSyndrome]

I'll admit I haven't tried to pay attention to interlacing so far, mainly because I'm more concerned about getting both video modes on a modchipped Saturn to co-operate perfectly on a UK HDTV setup.

To those people who found the first post tl;dr, I basically want any solution that will leave me with a working 50Hz mode *and* also provide workarounds for overscan.

Grimly, it appears none of the three viable TVs in my household provide overscan options. I read the manual for the Samsung TV to see if it'd be any different, but no cookie.

GerbilSoft, on 09 August 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

MarzSyndrome, on 09 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

With the Goodmans, 50Hz would only output in monochrome. With the Murphy, it would display in colour but be very erratic, having a brief "spasm" every few seconds or so, which is noticeable enough to make it unuseable for proper gaming. And with the Samsung, it would display in very washed out or oversaturated colours and look generally ghastly, and the output would still be unstable and try to reset itself often. I actually possess a fair amount of Saturn SCART cables acquired over the years, to the extent that I can't even tell if any of them were originally for the PAL Saturn. Yet regardless of which cable I use, I get the same disappointing results.

This usually happens if you're using a composite video SCART cable, not an RGB SCART cable. The reason for this is because older consoles used a single crystal oscillator to derive all the frequencies used in the system, and this oscillator has to be an exact multiple of the color subcarrier. (NTSC is 3.579545 MHz, PAL is 4.43361875 MHz.) These subcarrier frequencies have to be super-precise; if it's off by even a tiny bit, you'll end up with either no color or unstable color, as you've mentioned. Solutions are to get an RGB SCART cable or to replace the oscillator with a PAL frequency oscillator. (Former's probably the better option.)

I'm pretty damn sure I went out of my way first time round to buy an RGB SCART cable after reading up on it back then. Unfortunately my one good SCART cable has no logos or text on it to determine the type, and I don't fancy the idea of opening the thing up either just to see what kind of cables they are, particularly as it works pretty well in 60Hz in its own right. I could bite the bullet and buy another one, but could you recommend anyone in particular who's confirmed to sell genuine RGB cables?

As for the overscan thing, I'm starting to think that maybe I should try getting a SCART to VGA converter instead, if HDMI is incapable of providing manual adjustment options...

[GerbilSoft]

If you have a multimeter, you can check that the RGB pins on the Saturn side match up to the RGB pins on the SCART side.

Saturn: http://www.gamesx.co...ts/saturnav.htm
SCART: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART

Also, some TVs might only support RGB on specific SCART ports, while other ports might be composite and/or S-Video only. Check the TV to make sure the port the Saturn's plugged into supports RGB, and make sure RGB's enabled in the onscreen display (provided the onscreen display has an option for it). There's a not-quite-standard addition that replaces some RGB lines with S-Video, so it's possible that the TV might be looking for an S-Video signal, and since it doesn't find it, it falls back to composite.

This post has been edited by GerbilSoft: 09 August 2013 - 01:23 PM

[Oerg866]

Usually only the first (if multiple are present) SCART connector supports RGB.

Please make sure:

1) The RGB lines are properly connected (open the scart connector, usually quite easy) and none of the resistors and/or capacitors have loose leads
2) Make sure all the ground pins are connected properly
3) apart from that your TV might just not support RGBScart anymore. An SVideo signal is an after thought but supported by most SCART capable devices (Since it has existed since S-VHS came out), where the chroma signal is put on pin 15.
4) Check pin 16: AV/RGB-switching signal: 0..0,4 V– (low = FBAS), 1..3 V– (high = RGB) @ Z = 75 Ohm -- and also pin 18 which is the ground pin for that signal.

(Also, I have checked any my 2012 SAMSUNG Plasma TV does not support Y/C on SCART anymore, while my 2006 LCD TV from SAMSUNG does... Both support RGB SCART though.)

This post has been edited by Oerg866: 09 August 2013 - 01:35 PM

[Meat Miracle]

A Japanese Saturn, when set to 50hz mode, will output a nonstandard (?) NTSC50 colour signal which very few devices can handle, hence the black/white picture. My Panasonic Viera can't handle it for sure. I have a very old Sony projector that can do it on paper, but I haven't actually tried it.

Scart RGB should, work fine however, but do note that for Japanese and USA Saturns you need either the Japanese RGB21 cable (which has different pinout from regular Scart), or an aftermarket cable from ebay.

The forced deinterlacing is because the 240p signal used in old consoles do a trick of some kind, forcing the raster beam to not switch between odd and even lines every other frame. HDTVs (and in fact almost any digital displays, including old projectors) don't do this and treat everything as interlaced; and most HDTVs have deinterlacing forced on such signals.

This post has been edited by Meat Miracle: 09 August 2013 - 07:14 PM

[MarzSyndrome]

Oerg866, on 09 August 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Usually only the first (if multiple are present) SCART connector supports RGB.

Please make sure:

1) The RGB lines are properly connected (open the scart connector, usually quite easy) and none of the resistors and/or capacitors have loose leads
2) Make sure all the ground pins are connected properly
3) apart from that your TV might just not support RGBScart anymore. An SVideo signal is an after thought but supported by most SCART capable devices (Since it has existed since S-VHS came out), where the chroma signal is put on pin 15.
4) Check pin 16: AV/RGB-switching signal: 0..0,4 V– (low = FBAS), 1..3 V– (high = RGB) @ Z = 75 Ohm -- and also pin 18 which is the ground pin for that signal.

(Also, I have checked any my 2012 SAMSUNG Plasma TV does not support Y/C on SCART anymore, while my 2006 LCD TV from SAMSUNG does... Both support RGB SCART though.)

Ow, my brain, this is all too technical for my liking! >.<

Would it help at all if I took photos of the good SCART cable I have and the respective in and out ports on the Saturn and HDTV(s) in question?

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

A Japanese Saturn, when set to 50hz mode, will output a nonstandard (?) NTSC50 colour signal which very few devices can handle, hence the black/white picture. My Panasonic Viera can't handle it for sure. I have a very old Sony projector that can do it on paper, but I haven't actually tried it.

So does this mean I'm more or less boned? I could alternatively live with 60Hz, provided it didn't affect PAL games too negatively, and more importantly if I can find a solution to the overscan problem.

Quote

Scart RGB should, work fine however, but do note that for Japanese and USA Saturns you need either the Japanese RGB21 cable (which has different pinout from regular Scart), or an aftermarket cable from ebay.

So something like this would be suitable? Doesn't mention RGB21 but it does state that it's for Japanese Saturns. Bit pricey for a single cable though.


Another question: has anyone ever been able to get the Saturn to work with a SCART-to-VGA conversion or anything of the sort?

[Oerg866]

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Scart RGB should, work fine however, but do note that for Japanese and USA Saturns you need either the Japanese RGB21 cable (which has different pinout from regular Scart), or an aftermarket cable from ebay.

No you don't, his TV is still SCART, not RGB21, and the pinout at the console is the same.

EDIT: OK, fuck me, it's not.

This should do the trick. the video cable is missing the switching signal that goes to pin 8. Very easy fix.

http://www.mmmonkey....al-scart-leads/

This post has been edited by Oerg866: 09 August 2013 - 03:46 PM

[Meat Miracle]

Oerg866, on 09 August 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Scart RGB should, work fine however, but do note that for Japanese and USA Saturns you need either the Japanese RGB21 cable (which has different pinout from regular Scart), or an aftermarket cable from ebay.

No you don't, his TV is still SCART, not RGB21, and the pinout at the console is the same.

EDIT: OK, fuck me, it's not.

This should do the trick. the video cable is missing the switching signal that goes to pin 16, like I said above. It's a very easy fix.

http://www.mmmonkey....al-scart-leads/

erm, which pinout do you mean? The Saturn has an official RGB21 cable in japan, so it works for sure on Japanese Saturns, you just need a pinout converter for RGB21 -> Scart (or even open up the connector and manually rearrange the pins). RGB21 and Scart use the same connector, just with a different pinout.

PAL and NTSC Saturns differ in the a/v pinout, PAL machines have c-sync removed in favour of a 9v signal required for SCART auto switching. Scart cables sold with the Saturn back in the 90s are wired to use that 9v output. If you put them in a NTSC Saturn, you'll either end up with composite only, or a picture jumping between composite and RGB randomly, as the voltage level of the c-sync signal spikes. That's why separate NTSC RGB Cables are required (since most aftermarket manufacturers just copy the PAL Scart cables design, you need one specifically designed for NTSC machines).

Since the voltage pin required for RGB switching is not outputted at all when using a PAL Scart + Japanese machine, you can't really fix that in any way unless you mod your console to output voltage instead of c-sync... which is counter productive since some upscalers need that instead of composite input, and if you remove c-sync, you need a sync splitter circuit.

[MarzSyndrome]

To be honest guys, I think I'd rather just throw my money at some reliable (local) wiring expert to have them make a super-duper magicky cable for me, than attempt to mess with intricate wires and volts myself. =P

While I was looking around, I decided to watch this video about the XRGB-mini, despite it being something more within the "wallet destroying" range I've been trying to avoid. It looks good. VERY good. But yet I'm still none the wiser as to how well exactly it can handle 50Hz and 60Hz outputs on a Japanese Saturn (especially a console which can switch between both at will), and how well it attempts to show the full screen and not cut off the top/bottom/corners (hence the 'overscan' issue I keep blabbering on about). Is it really worth getting though just for the sake of getting a perfect display output on my Saturn by any means? I mean, sure, I have a PS1/PS2/Dreamcast/Gamecube/Wii to use it with as well, but as of now I seem overly obsessed with getting the very best out of the Saturn specfically, with the TVs I'm currently stuck with. Emulating it on my PC just doesn't really cut it for me.

This post has been edited by MarzSyndrome: 09 August 2013 - 04:24 PM

[Meat Miracle]

You can't change the wiring in the cable since the "universal" 5v voltage pin is not connected on the Saturn side of the cable, you'd need to hack out the entire cable to solder that on.

If you want perfect picture, get a Trinitron CRT.

This post has been edited by Meat Miracle: 09 August 2013 - 04:32 PM

[dsrb]

With apologies again to MarzSyndrome...

GerbilSoft, on 09 August 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

dsrb, on 09 August 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Not to hijack your thread, but I had issues with my Japanese Saturn seemingly being 'deinterlaced' or something by all TVs, except two Sony Trinitron CRTs--despite the fact that it wasn't interlaced in the first place--which made it interlace horribly during movement. Have you seen anything like this? I've never heard any explanation of why this might have occurred, caused by the TV and/or the particular Saturn itself, so if people are going to get technical here, I'd appreciate if they could help with this question too.

I have a Sony DSC-1024HD scan converter that does the exact same thing. The problem is some TV manufacturers think that "240p" never existed, so they automatically assume that 15 kHz is interlaced. Unfortunately, I don't know of any way to fix this. (Interestingly, I also have a Sony PVM-20M4U professional CRT that handles 15 kHz non-interlaced just fine.)

Meat Miracle, on 09 August 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

The forced deinterlacing is because the 240p signal used by old consoles do a trick of some kind to force the raster beam to display not switch between odd and even lines every other frame. HDTVs (and in fact almost any digital displays, including old projectors) don't do this and treat everything as interlaced; and most HDTVs have deinterlacing forced on such signals.

Thanks to you both for the info. But can this explain why the problem occurred only with my Japanese Saturn, not PAL ones, and on CRTs as well as HDTVs? The only TVs that didn't exhibit the 'phantom' deinterlacing were two Sony Trinitron-type sets I've tried. Others, whether CRT or flat, showed the Japanese Saturn all messed up when moving but PAL ones fine at all times.

I do have an old thread about this, but we never got much further than the differences in pinouts that have already been noted in response to MarzSyndrome. And on that note, I was using PAL SCART cables on the Japanese Saturn because I couldn't find official NTSC ones, only a third-party one that didn't work on any console. I didn't notice any problems due to switching or anything like that, just the interlacing already mentioned. But could the absence of composite sync, or something, explain why only the Trinitrons could display the Japanese Saturn OK?

And on that note, what magic must the Trinitrons have that all other TVs lack? I tried a good few other sets of various types and brands, and only Sony Trinitrons displayed properly. I know these are good sets, but I can't begin to imagine what the do that's so special that they can circumvent whatever was coming out of that Saturn and confusing all the other TVs.

Since I've not read about this problem from other people online using NTSC-J Saturns, I ended up suspecting it was something wrong with my specific console, not Japanese Saturns in general.

[Meat Miracle]

You can use a pal scart cable with a Japanese Saturn, but it will either work in only composite, or it will go apeshit and randomly switch between composite and rgb, or it might just work. The c-sync signal, to which the RGB selection pin is wired in PAL Scart cables, is not a stable direct current voltage required by the Scart/Peritel standard (it has to be between 1-3 volts; the c-sync signal does not always reach that, so you have problems).
Some TVs might still work in RGB with it, if they ignore the standard and force RGB on certain ports, or have RGB selectable instead of automatically switching, etc... Also, some scart switchers actually add the required voltage there.

I'm not sure why your Trinitrons displayed the 240p signals properly; there are quite a lot Trinitron models out there, some may work fine, others might not. I know that the Sony projector I have from ~2000 can't do 240p and displays the interlaced signal, unlike modern TVs it does not force deinterlacing.

[Oerg866]

You know, it would be so much easier to just rewire the cable properly or do the small fix I linked instead of listening to all the half-knowledge Meat Miracle is spewing about

This post has been edited by Oerg866: 09 August 2013 - 07:49 PM