[JaredAFX]

I'm pretty knowledgeable about chiptune music. I make stuff in FamiTracker, so I completely understand the NES/Famicom's 2A03 chip and the Famicom's expansions, like the VRC6. I also understand that the Game Boy basically has four FDS (Famicom Disk System) channels. Last, but not least, I get that the Genesis has a Yamaha FM chip and a Texas Instruments PSG chip, and that the two are controlled by a Z80 (the Master System's CPU, as well as a lot of other devices). What I don't understand is the S-SMP, the Super Nintendo/Famicom's soundchip. I've heard that it doesn't make "chiptunes" in the conventional sense because it only uses samples. Is this true? Is there no internal sound that it can make, other than bending the pitch of samples? I'm just confused on the whole subject and I can't find a reliable source; everything conflicts with each other.

EDIT: Changed the topic title to better reflect the conversations going on.

This post has been edited by JaredAFX: 01 August 2013 - 08:02 AM

[steveswede]

My understanding of it is that chip tunes are from hardware synths and not ROMplers so yeah your understanding is the same as mine. As for the SNES producing it's own sounds, hopefully someone can answer that because I'm curious if it does and if true what games do.

[Andlabs]

SNES plays back samples stored in a compressed form called BRR. There are eight playback channels, and each can be swapped out with a traditional noise channel if you so choose. You can read up on the full capabilities of the chip by looking for technical documentation on the chip (I'm using Anomie's S-DSP Doc as a technical reference for something secret ).

As for whether or not SNES music qualifies as chiptunes, I'm not going to argue sides here, though from what I can tell for the time being when most people think of chiptunes they usually think of square wave music (NES, GB, C64, etc. or just using instruments that sound like the above but are not made on that hardware).

This post has been edited by Andlabs: 30 July 2013 - 03:59 PM

[Shadow Hog]

I always kind of figured that SNES music was basically like music modules (XM, IT, MOD etc) - except it was very limited in the amount of sample space you got, so the samples were frequently compressed heavily, leading to that "muffled" sound criticism that occasionally gets thrown around.

[Eric Wright]

Shadow Hog, on 30 July 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

I always kind of figured that SNES music was basically like music modules (XM, IT, MOD etc) - except it was very limited in the amount of sample space you got, so the samples were frequently compressed heavily, leading to that "muffled" sound criticism that occasionally gets thrown around.

That "muffled" sound is actually a low-pass filter applied to the overall sound output; most SNES music is very similar to MOD/XM/etc stuff, and the LPF is applied to smooth out some of the treble "crackly" artifacts that can occur.

AndLabs said:

most people think of chiptunes they usually think of square wave music (NES, GB, C64, etc

Seconding this; partially because I always kinda associate "chiptune" with audio being created from a chip, as opposed to using samples... but you can't control how things get construed as they gain wider popularity/audience.

[ThunderPX]

Eric Wright, on 30 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

That "muffled" sound is actually a low-pass filter applied to the overall sound output; most SNES music is very similar to MOD/XM/etc stuff, and the LPF is applied to smooth out some of the treble "crackly" artifacts that can occur.

Huh, interesting. Makes me wonder what SNES music would sound like without that filter, even if the result was apparently deemed undesirable by the people who made it.

[Meat Miracle]

JaredAFX, on 30 July 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I've heard that it doesn't make "chiptunes" in the conventional sense because it only uses samples. Is this true? Is there no internal sound that it can make, other than bending the pitch of samples? I'm just confused on the whole subject and I can't find a reliable source; everything conflicts with each other.

Technically the whole chiptune moniker originates from the Amiga MODs, which played back 4 channel sampled music.

What you are thinking of is not chiptune but FM.

[JaredAFX]

Well, I didn't expect to get so many replies
It makes more sense to me now. I just didn't understand how the SNES worked its magic. Comparing SPCs to MODs and XMs makes perfect sense.

[Chibisteven]

I just simply define chip tune as anything that uses a microchip(s) to reproduce a performace by a stream of notes and controllers (may require the actual hardware to faithfully reproduce the performace), regardless if it's FM, or sample-based, or sqaure-based. I define streaming audio as anything that was recorded as a wave form in the studio and compressed or stored in a format that takes a steady stream to reproduce the end result and doesn't need the original hardware once a decoder is written to reproduce accuritely.

Chiptune: Genesis, (some SEGA CD tunes), 32X, Super Nintendo, etc. Any modern console's sound format that similar to MIDI such as the Playstation Sound Format
Streaming (not a chiptune): redbook audio, adx, etc.

Games that use chiptunes by my defination of a true chiptune: majority of Sonic Shuffle's score, Sonic CD (Past)
Example of a game using streaming audio, not a chiptune by my defination: Sonic Adventure (1&2), Sonic R, Saturn version of Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Shuffle's score during a MPEG movie, Sonic CD (present, good future, bad future), etc.

This post has been edited by Chibisteven: 31 July 2013 - 12:22 AM

[Mr Lange]

ThunderPX, on 30 July 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Eric Wright, on 30 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

That "muffled" sound is actually a low-pass filter applied to the overall sound output; most SNES music is very similar to MOD/XM/etc stuff, and the LPF is applied to smooth out some of the treble "crackly" artifacts that can occur.

Huh, interesting. Makes me wonder what SNES music would sound like without that filter, even if the result was apparently deemed undesirable by the people who made it.

Get the SNESamp plugin for Winamp/XMPlay and try out some SPCs. The options let you disable the filter, or even change the filter type. In fact it lets you modify the sound output in a variety of ways.

[Black Squirrel]

Eric Wright, on 30 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

most SNES music is very similar to MOD/XM/etc stuff

Because I've always been a bit confused on this as well

Is it a coincidence then that a lot of SNES music sounds the same? I've never been a fan of this instrument but yet it seems to turns up in tons of SNES games (for example). Was this from some standard library supplied by Nintendo or am I getting this compeltely wrong

[Sodaholic]

I've always hated the SNES's muffled sound and oft-reused samples. The console would've sounded much better if more devs used more unique samples, and if Nintendo had found a better solution to artifacts from using uninterpolated samples. I would have preferred crisp, if not slightly buzzing sound over muffled soft crap. It just takes away from any "oomph" a dramatic sting may have had because it sounds like you're underwater.

[Thousand Pancake]

ThunderPX, on 30 July 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Eric Wright, on 30 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

That "muffled" sound is actually a low-pass filter applied to the overall sound output; most SNES music is very similar to MOD/XM/etc stuff, and the LPF is applied to smooth out some of the treble "crackly" artifacts that can occur.

Huh, interesting. Makes me wonder what SNES music would sound like without that filter, even if the result was apparently deemed undesirable by the people who made it.

I'm pretty sure ZSNES lets you lets you turn off any and all filters and interpolation for the sound and just listen to the instruments raw.

Chibisteven, on 31 July 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

I just simply define chip tune as anything that uses a microchip(s) to reproduce a performace by a stream of notes and controllers (may require the actual hardware to faithfully reproduce the performace), regardless if it's FM, or sample-based, or sqaure-based. I define streaming audio as anything that was recorded as a wave form in the studio and compressed or stored in a format that takes a steady stream to reproduce the end result and doesn't need the original hardware once a decoder is written to reproduce accurately.

My definition is much the same, but broader. If it's a sequenced piece of music being played back on a single synthesizer or rompler, be it hardware or software-based, it's a chiptune.

This post has been edited by Thousand Pancake: 31 July 2013 - 05:00 PM

[ICEknight]

ThunderPX, on 30 July 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Eric Wright, on 30 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

That "muffled" sound is actually a low-pass filter applied to the overall sound output; most SNES music is very similar to MOD/XM/etc stuff, and the LPF is applied to smooth out some of the treble "crackly" artifacts that can occur.

Huh, interesting. Makes me wonder what SNES music would sound like without that filter, even if the result was apparently deemed undesirable by the people who made it.

I guess removing the low-pass filter would just result in a clearer sound with weaker bass... But I think the sound interpolation might be something more relevant to the unique way the SNES music sounds.


If I remember correctly, when disabling sound interpolation, some of the instruments (I'm guessing those not sample-based) will sound more like they're coming from a Game Boy Advance (think those buzzing sounds in the Sonic Advance music).


...This makes me wonder how would the Game Boy Advance games sound like with those SNES filters and interpolation applied, specially on top of the clear samples you can hear when extracting the songs to MIDI format.


(Edited since I had skipped a few posts accidentally)

This post has been edited by ICEknight: 31 July 2013 - 10:32 PM

[TmEE]

Muffledness is a side effect of the interpolation method used on the samples during playback. Filtering done as part of BRR compression is not the most significant cause. I would love to get a cloned SPC with interpolation removed, I'll much rather hear aliasing artifacts than something coming underwater or through a pillow. That still won't fix all the looping problems half the games have...

As for chiptuneness, it is a style of music, it does not and should not have to be tied to hardware to qualify as being such. I don't consider anything I do as chipmusic even thouh it comes out various chips. By that logic most of the electronic music is chip music due to being all synth generated. Chipmusic to me is the mainly squarewaves based stuff... the Gameboy, NES, SMS, Atari etc. I'll now go back to making sweet italo on the YM chips :P