[Quickman]

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These pictures, for the most part, and these texts, music lyrics, news, were not taken from an image search, but from a deep, serious and objective search. In real life, a dust hill is a dune or some powdery snow, not an underground cavern. Now, you can think what you want...

They're still not the opinions of Sega, or the STI, or Sonic Team. They're the opinions of random people all over the Internet.

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A scientific perspective is to go at Sonic Team to ask them (and the programmer) to prove things. There is nothing else to do.

Granted, but that's easier said than done.

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Logic dictates "this sentence is available only for Sonic 2 Beta v1.54 found by Simon Wai. We can't know what his programmer made before it."

Agreed, and the sentence I posted previously is technically a fallacy, but until we can get some data, it's up to people to choose.

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You can't add any other levels under this level select, there is not enough space on the screen.

You can if you modify the code.

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Then, if you think that, the sand/snow level was never under this level select (the zone never existed, even in previous betas), why make some art for a level we can't add into the game at start (with a level select already programmed like this)?

Art was made, then level select was made while desert level was on hold (like a company being under review). Someone said "I don't like this, see if you can make it better, you've got X weeks, if it's not good enough by then then we'll drop you". They wouldn't prepare for adding it while doubt was surrounding it.

[Qjimbo]

God damn it, noones gonna win this arguement. There is not enough evidence. Until someone involved with the game design at STI says Dust Hill was an early name for Mystic Cave, or Dust Hill was the Desert Zone. The evidence for the Dust Hill = Desert Zone is too flaky - not that that means it isn't true. Gah, everytime I try and explain this it comes out too complicated xD

Brenda Ross herself calling it Dust Hill originally settled the debate, however when people started picking that apart saying that she could have been polluted by the hundreds of emails in her inbox or even the questions themselves, that's how we got to the stage we are now. It's more of a matter of a opinion than a matter of fact.

QuickMan, you are right that the two words "Dust Hill" are not enough to prove this arguement. BobXP, if you are going to disagree with the Dust Hill claim saying "it's been proved" please be less ambiguous and explain how it was proved, copy and paste if you need to, but NOONE has any solid evidence that proves that the Desert Zone was called Dust Hill.

Another arguement that seems to have got mixed in with the one above, is whether our well loved Desert Zone was ever in Sonic 2. NOONE can prove that it was or wasn't, because we don't have the entire Sonic 2 development CVS tree!!! Even my palette comment doesn't prove it (especially considering that is apparently false) because they could've put the palette there ready and never used the space for example.

It's all up in the air, and it's only going to become grounded once we have unarguable cold hard evidence.

[Hayate]

Considering this is a BETA we are looking at, then if Mystic Caves had simply "overwritten" rather than being Dust Hill, some fragments of DHZ would be left there. And in these six (?) years of having the beta, have we found any leftovers? NO!

I earlier theorised in a different post that SonicTeam/SEGA/<insert dev group here> could have just thought "Hey, this desert zone doesn't belong here, let's get rid of it, but those inside bits look nice - why not make it into an underground level?" and thus it changed to Mystic Caves. And to give an analogy, it's a bit like me turning HPZ into GPZ in my hack.

[Wyvernlord]

The way I see it, there just doesn't seem to be enough evidence to conclude wether the desert level was called Dust Hill or not. Unless we find an individual who was involved deeply with the development of Sonic 2, the subject's open to debate.

[JoseTB]

My theory about this:

-Dust hill is the beta name for mcz,like Neo green hill is the beta name for arz.For some reason,somebody started to call that desert image dust hill.

-The desert image that we have is no more than a concept art (that's evident) The concept arts are done before the zone is implemented in the game,so the artist and/or sega can know how it will looks.

-Also remember that the level select is not a priority for the programmer/s.(like the s3 level select contain things for older versions,aparently) The level select in the actual beta maybe was done to work in older versions,pointing to level slots now used by other zones.Anyway the desert image was just a concept art,and probably that zone never have been in the game.

-On another side,I think that for in beta that we have,genocide city zone was deleted.They though that a zone with that name,and probably based on violent things,wouldn't be good to do in a sonic game since a lot of kids will play it.

For me that's what makes more sense,but still we can't know anything for sure without question directly to sega or the zone artists.

[Frigidare]

bobxp, on Sep 13 2004, 07:44 AM, said:

Considering this is a BETA we are looking at, then if Mystic Caves had simply "overwritten" rather than being Dust Hill, some fragments of DHZ would be left there.

How come? Do you happen to know that the level data for Desert Zone (if it existed) was larger than that of Mystic Cave Zone? Surely your theory suggests that there are fragments of every idea that was ever in Sonic 2 that had decisions against it.

This post has been edited by MasterEmerald: 13 September 2004 - 12:31 PM

[Sonic Hachelle-Bee]

I'm calm now, and I feel better. I'm returning to an objective view of the situation.

Everything about this sand/snow level started when someone said "Dust Hill zone" talking about this mockup picture. For days, we almost all agreed with the idea that "Dust Hill zone" was the old name for the sand/snow level, because it describes it very well (that was the point of my research).
One day, somebody said, and he was right, that we can't call anymore the sand/snow level "Dust Hill", because this is obviously the name of the cave level under our beta. Since this day, the hot debate about this sand/snow level name started...
A lot of theories were out, a lot of people were flamed because they called this sand/snow level "Dust Hill". We were so determinated about our own theory that we were to the point to be paranoiac, even not believe Brenda Ross herself, the level designer.
A new interview will be useless. We will not believe what Sega will say for the same reasons...

This situation can't still like this anymore. The fact is we can't prove anything: Maybe the sand/snow level was called "Dust Hill" before the cave level, maybe the cave level was the only one to be called "Dust Hill" during all the game developpement (and not only our beta)...Both theories are equivalent, and since they are theories, we can't say anything true about this "Dust Hill" name. Then:

Why not call the cave level "Dust Hill" without being flamed by people of the sand/snow level theory? This is truely its name under our beta obviously.
But why not call it "Mystic Cave" also, without being flamed by the people of the cave level theory? After all, sometimes we are talking about "Emerald Hill" instead of "Green Hill", "Aquatic Ruin" instead of "Neo Green Hill", and we don't really care about them.

Why not call the sand/snow level "Dust Hill" without being flamed by people of the cave level theory? This name fits just fine for the mockup picture (see the results of my research), and a lot of people still continue to believe that, and we are confusing them with all our cave level theories. Let's the people think what they want to think, and maybe we will have to write something on this site in case somebody doesn't really knows again that "Dust Hill" is the cave level under our beta.
But why not call the sand/snow level "the sand/snow level, Desert Hill, desert level..." without being flamed by the people of the sand/snow level theory? We can't prove "Dust Hill" is the real name for the sand/snow level, just like we can't prove "Dust Hill" was always been a cave level, and these generic names describe the level very well, everybody will know what we are talking about.

I tried to deliver a message of peace between 2 category of people. I hope this post will end the "no Dust Hill for the sand/snow level!" and the "Dust Hill must be the sand/snow level name!" war. I hope I will be able to call the cave level "Dust Hill" without confusing and offending people. I hope also I will be able to write again "Dust Hill" talking about the sand/snow level without being flamed, because my hack contains this level.
At last, I hope everybody will read this post and agree with me.

[Frigidare]

Sonic Hachelle-Bee, on Sep 13 2004, 09:54 PM, said:

Everything about this sand/snow level started when someone said "Dust Hill zone" talking about this mockup picture.

What, that's it? Let's face it, the person who called Desert Zone "Dust Hill Zone" has no real authority on this. Those saying "Dust Hill is that sandy level" are basing their theories on a random member of the community. Why? Why are they right, and the beta wrong?

[8-Bit Dragon]

MasterEmerald, on Sep 14 2004, 11:44 AM, said:

Sonic Hachelle-Bee, on Sep 13 2004, 09:54 PM, said:

Everything about this sand/snow level started when someone said "Dust Hill zone" talking about this mockup picture.

What, that's it? Let's face it, the person who called Desert Zone "Dust Hill Zone" has no real authority on this. Those saying "Dust Hill is that sandy level" are basing their theories on a random member of the community. Why? Why are they right, and the beta wrong?

It wan't just random members calling it Dust Hill, Brenda Ross herself called it Dust Hill. But, as QJimbo said, she could have been polluted by all the people calling it Dust Hill, that she might have called it Dust Hill by accedent. We just don't have enough evidence. I would like to think that she would have pointed out that it's real name was not Dust Hill in the interviews that were given, it would not be out of her way to have corrected this mistake by saying "Dust Hill's actual name is..." and that would have been the end of it. But she didn't, which suggests ether she forgot/didn't care, or Dust Hill IS INFACT the desert level's real name.

This post has been edited by 8-Bit Dragon: 14 September 2004 - 12:44 PM

[Quickman]

The point is she couldn't remember or never knew what it was called so she assumed from the volume of mail which said "Dust Hill" that that was the name of the level.

[Kles]

Okay, I'll ask a question I haven't seen yet.

Does it really matter? If so, why?

[Qjimbo]

Kles, on Sep 14 2004, 02:37 PM, said:

Okay, I'll ask a question I haven't seen yet.

Does it really matter? If so, why?

It only matters if people call the Desert Zone Dust Hill because it is unconfirmed I.e. it hasn't been proven to be called Dust Hill.
The reason it matters is because I guess it gives the impression the desert zone is 100% certain to be called Dust Hill or something.
Seeing people calling the Desert Zone Dust Hill doesn't bother me to much, but it makes some people on the forum go >_<! lol.

EDIT:

QuickMan said:

The point is she couldn't remember or never knew what it was called so she assumed from the volume of mail which said "Dust Hill" that that was the name of the level.

What makes you think she couldn't remember? I thought it was just a possibility she couldn't remember, not a fact.

This post has been edited by QJimbo: 14 September 2004 - 03:22 PM

[Quickman]

QJimbo, on Sep 14 2004, 08:18 PM, said:

What makes you think she couldn't remember? I thought it was just a possibility she couldn't remember, not a fact.

She takes prompts from the e-mail and from other e-mails as to what it is called, showing that she does not herself know.

[Wetflame]

It's just about authority and some of the more "intelligent" members being asses.

I'm not even sure that Neo Green Hill was the name for Aquatic Ruin - I think it overwrote another level.

Lets look at some points -

- Brenda Ross herself called it Dust Hill. Now, Sonic 2 is one of the best known games of all time. If you work on it, chances are you'll eventually say "Hold on" when someone incorrectly names the level you drew art for.

- Dust Hill is a fitting name for a Desert level, and not a cave level.

- Mystic caves, in our "beta", appears to ahve only just been implemented; it is an odd mishmash of all the different obstacles in the stage, showing that it was an early test version, probably just after the art was implemented and after the code was written. This leads me to believe it is indeed a very new stage.

- Green Hill was used as the name of the stage in Sonic 1, yet re-used for a different stage in Sonic 2. So, it's not unreasonable to assume they left the name as a working name.

- * Hill is nearly always obviously descriptive or related to the game. Green Hill, Emerald Hill, Mushroom Hill, Hill Top, Windy Hill... All the early names are basically descriptive. No fancy names that you have to guess at, such as "Dust Hill" somehow referring to a build up of Dust in a case (This is starting to sound like many of the bad GCZ ideas)

- When concept art was completed, it would NOT have been difficult to implement a basic version of the zone based on the art.

- Wing Fortress was able to completely overwrite the Sonic 1 Special stage, with no problems. It was only later on that they got sloppy; as they were most liekly rushed and had more freedom earlier on, which is a fair thing to assume.

- Okay, this is the not-quite-as-big-as-the-big-one-one; the Hidden Palace screenshots; the mockups appear to be from the same "version".
It should be noted that Hidden Palace probably was not really worked on any since those shots.
Why would Hidden Palace have been made into a level, and not Dust Hill? Dust Hill being a more standrad level.

- I believe there was a document written along time ago that showed how some of the old pointers have not been updated yet; and actually point to the wrong slots. I'd like someone to dig that out, if they could.

- Furthering that point; and this is the big one.

Look in Hidden Palace Zone. See that Tails Icon? I proved a long time ago that in Sonic 1, they had 2 seperate Sonic head icons. In Sonic 2, they overwrote one with Tails. All the other levels, except Hidden Palace, had been updated with this. It still pointed to the same location; which was now overwritten with a Tails head Icon.

Sound familiar?

This proves the case that it is *possible* that the pointers had not yet been updated, even at the time of later screenshots, thus debunking the irritating "Automatically proven wrong" argument that people like Bob from Sclassic so annoyingly use.

They were probably thinking of scrapping HPZ at the time, thus why it wasn't updated. So we have a beta in the middle of level removal.

- Little extras, 01 was probably originally Neo Green Hill Zone since it came straight after it; it was probably originally Green Hill's future if the Time Travel theory is true(no reason not to believe it). Not sure why they moved it.
I personally think 09 was probably GCZ's real slot; as the music in that slot appears to be Sky Chase Zone's which actually somewhat suits it.


-

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It shows what nerds we've all become =P Things making sense and the english language have become irrelevant to the almighty TECHNICAL EVIDENCE.

Also, could someone find me an old hacking gudie that lists the different level sltos for both final and beta?

This post has been edited by Wetflame: 14 September 2004 - 04:31 PM

[Qjimbo]

Quick Man, on Sep 14 2004, 04:00 PM, said:

QJimbo, on Sep 14 2004, 08:18 PM, said:

What makes you think she couldn't remember? I thought it was just a possibility she couldn't remember, not a fact.

She takes prompts from the e-mail and from other e-mails as to what it is called, showing that she does not herself know.

Wha?! How the hell do you know, I'm still confused! She never says "I was working on that Dust Hill thingy that [email protected] mentioned" for example. Don't take this the wrong way, I would just like you to provide some quotes from the interview and stuff. I'm sure I can't be the only one confused here!
The first mentioning of Dust Hill is made by Brenda herself:

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How far into the design did desert zone see? Was a boss for that level ever created?
I think that Dust Hill was completed entirely, and woods zone was mostly done. Once you have the initial key pieces, you can go fairly far with building a level.

Ok, I'm prepared to accept Dust Hill is a possible incorrect title for the zone, and I will refer to it as the desert zone. However I simply cannot accept Brenda being influenced as a fact, it's just a possibility! You can't use it as ammo :P

Oh and Wetflame, nice points there. Not all of them make sense though, but that is most of the stuff that's left on the Dust Hill=Desert Zone side of the table. I'm also pretty certain you're right about the first point, which I had forgotten. Apprently there are magazine articles that show Neo Green Hill Zone AND Aquitic Ruin in the same Rom. Unfortunatly, I don't have the articles but I'll have a look around.