[Sonic Hachelle-Bee]

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No evidence to support claim. Evidence suggests that the desert zone was never a level, merely art, and Mystic Cave was once Dust Hill, nothing more.

Then Genocide City was more completed (because this is a level with a slot in the game) than the sand/snow zone (wich had no slot).
I highly doubt that personnaly.

GCZ has a slot under the level select, like all the levels we know, except the sand/snow level.
If GCZ had nothing made (even some art):
Why make a slot for an empty level, and not for the sand/snow zone with some art already made?
If GCZ had already some art somewhere:
Why keep an empty slot in the level select for something cutted from the game very early, like the sand/snow zone?

Conclusion, 3 things possible:
1. The sand/snow level may never existed (even some art). Brenda Ross was lying under the interview, and the mockup is a fan art picture.
2. The sand/snow level is Genocide City zone.
3. The sand/snow level existed, but was replaced by another level using the same slot.

That's what I think.
There is something always true: Dust Hill zone is Mystic Cave zone in OUR Sonic 2 beta v1.54.
Maybe this is not true in older versions of the game.

[Quickman]

Here's an alternate theory.

1. Brenda Ross makes some art for a desert zone as is requested ("make me some desert level art" "okay"). She makes a mockup picture from what's completed, taking some Sonic 1 level art and substituting the already available graphics (Sonic sprites, enemies, rings) to create the mockup.
2. Meanwhile, somebody conceptualises a level which is tentatively named Genocide City with whatever purpose behind it.
3. While this is happening, some other artist creates art for an approved cave zone called Dust Hill Zone.
4. At first, Brenda's desert is put on hold and the okay is given for Genocide City Zone to be added to the level select.
5. The next thing which is decided is that the desert zone is scrapped. Byebye Brenda, thanks for all the art. No desert zone.
6. Then the decision is made to scrap Genocide City Zone for whatever reason (tentative postulation: they can't find someone to do the art). The idea is scrapped before it gets off the ground.
7. Then later the decision is made to scrap the name Dust Hill Zone and rename the cave level to Mystic Cave Zone.

Our beta comes at a point when Genocide City is still an empty level on the level select menu, Mystic Cave is still Dust Hill and Brenda's desert is on hold, the mockup having been released to the media.

[8-Bit Dragon]

A few things I disagree with. This is actually like an improvement on your theory, a theory upon a theory....I guess?

Quick Man, on Sep 11 2004, 01:51 PM, said:

Here's an alternate theory.

3. While this is happening, some other artist creates art for an approved cave zone called Dust Hill Zone.

Why would they name it Dust Hill? If it was a cave at first, wouldn't it have been named to fit a cave?

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4. At first, Brenda's desert is put on hold and the okay is given for Genocide City Zone to be added to the level select.
5. The next thing which is decided is that the desert zone is scrapped. Byebye Brenda, thanks for all the art. No desert zone.

Umm, is Sega known for wasting things? And why scrap the Desert Zone for Genocide City? There is already a level that would generaly give the same feel as a level like this...

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6. Then the decision is made to scrap Genocide City Zone for whatever reason (tentative postulation: they can't find someone to do the art). The idea is scrapped before it gets off the ground.

Chemical Plant. So they SHOULD have picked up Brenda's Desert once again, but it's too late...

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7. Then later the decision is made to scrap the name Dust Hill Zone and rename the cave level to Mystic Cave Zone.

MCZ is better than the Desert Zone. Dust Hill could have been scrapped in favor of MCZ, so it is put in the same slot for DHZ and they would change the name in the level select later in the final. My theory is MCZ was never called DHZ in the first place, it is merely a fluke of time saving in the beta. Who takes the time to change the name of a level (or slot) in a level select every time you change your mind or don't like the name? I don't. When I make a game and I change a level, I don't go back and edit the name or menu EVERY time I change it. I wait till I'm completely done and satisfied with the rest of the level's names and I change them all at once, not one at a time as I create them. It would be a waste of time to go in and edit the menu again and again, when you COULD be spending your time actually getting the levels done.

This post has been edited by 8-Bit Dragon: 11 September 2004 - 04:08 PM

[Quickman]

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Why would they name it Dust Hill? If it was a cave at first, wouldn't it have been named to fit a cave?

They thought Dust Hill described a cave. Who knows how their train of thought went other than them? We can't connect the name Dust Hill and the desert zone - random images from Google Search prove nothing other than the person who named the image decided that the name "Dust Hill" or "Hill of Dust" fitted the picture. The person who named that image is not one of the people working on Sonic 2 in 1992.

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Umm, is Sega known for wasting things?

All companies are. It's called the development process. Some ideas are dropped.

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And why scrap the Desert Zone for Genocide City? There is already a level that would generaly give the same feel as a level like this...

I never said we were dropping one FOR another. I said we dropped one.

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Chemical Plant.

Mind elaborating?

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So they SHOULD have picked up Brenda's Desert once again, but it's too late...

You can't say they SHOULD have done anything. Brenda's desert is dropped. They're not picking it up again. If they had we'd have the desert zone today.

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MCZ is better than the Desert Zone.

Opinion.

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Dust Hill could have been scrapped in favor of MCZ, so it is put in the same slot for DHZ and they would change the name in the level select later in the final.

Illogical, given that MCZ was in the slot at the time. There's no evidence that the level was ever moved.

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Who takes the time to change the name of a level (or slot) in a level select every time you change your mind or don't like the name? I don't.

And since when were your practiced methods the industry standard?

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It would be a waste of time to go in and edit the menu again and again, when you COULD be spending your time actually getting the levels done.

But these are happening simultaneously. There's multiple people working on different things, it's not a one-man job.

EDIT: Clarification on a small inaccuracy.

This post has been edited by Quick Man: 11 September 2004 - 05:59 PM

[Qjimbo]

I think this whole debate depends on where you draw the line and rests on whether that Level Select Text was an early level name for MCZ or not. There's no evidence to suggest that Desert Zone = Dust Hill, but there's nothing to prove it isn't either. Since there isn't anything solid to prove that the Desert Zone was called Dust Hill our safest bet is to call the Desert Zone simply "the desert zone" even if Dust Hill is potencially more accurate. It doesn't really make much difference what you call it
I have to say though I'm enjoying the thoughts being shared in this thread.

[8-Bit Dragon]

Quick Man, on Sep 11 2004, 05:57 PM, said:

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Chemical Plant.

Mind elaborating?

You said they scrapped Genocide for whatever reson, Chemical Plant could be that reason.

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So they SHOULD have picked up Brenda's Desert once again, but it's too late...

You can't say they SHOULD have done anything. Brenda's desert is dropped. They're not picking it up again. If they had we'd have the desert zone today.

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MCZ is better than the Desert Zone.

Opinion.

What I meant by that is, they probably liked the idea of the cave zone better than the desert zone, not my opinion. My actual opinion would have been the Desert Zone is better. <_<

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Who takes the time to change the name of a level (or slot) in a level select every time you change your mind or don't like the name? I don't.

And since when were your practiced methods the industry standard?

It isn't, it is just more effecient that way and seems like any proffesional would do things the same to save time.

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It would be a waste of time to go in and edit the menu again and again, when you COULD be spending your time actually getting the levels done.

But these are happening simultaneously. There's multiple people working on different things, it's not a one-man job.

I'm aware of that, but again, it seems like they would be more effecient rather than have a guy or two waiting for instuctions on what to do about the menu. It is a waste of money when they could be doing somthing more usefull with their time, and please excuse me if I'm comming off as a borg drone but this is normal busness practice. If you are right and this is not how Sega is running things, it's no wonder the Dreamcast went under. And you don't just throw away bad ideas, epecially if you payed for it and the work got done. If it was a bad idea but it is done, surely you can afford to get a few floppy disks at least and save them just incase you decide to use them later. Though I realise the Desert Zone was not finished, it still progressed to the point of a mockup, which is good enough for saving. Any less and I'd agree that it was deleted and not worth the company's time and money to save.

[Quickman]

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You said they scrapped Genocide for whatever reson, Chemical Plant could be that reason.

Granted.

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What I meant by that is, they probably liked the idea of the cave zone better than the desert zone, not my opinion. My actual opinion would have been the Desert Zone is better. <_<

Also granted.

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It isn't, it is just more effecient that way and seems like any proffesional would do things the same to save time.

Sega is anything but efficient in its workings. See Sonic Xtreme for more details.

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*big-ass paragraph*

Again, Sega and efficiency only connect in a sentence where a negative is concerned somehow.

[Sonic Hachelle-Bee]

I have something to add.

We can't prove that sand/snow level = Dust Hill zone, that's right.
But we also can't prove that Dust Hill zone was always the name for a cave level.
Maybe the name Dust Hill zone was used for the sand/snow level before our beta, maybe not...
Maybe the cave level replaced the sand/snow level...We don't know.
The best thing to do to progress in this situation is to be logical, explaining how Sega made their Sonic 2 game before our beta, researching informations about the meaning of "Dust Hill" in the world... That's what we are doing, and it's something good.
We all have different opinions about this sand/snow level, and we have to confront all of them to see what 's obviously wrong, and what 's probably true.

Learning others opinions and confronting them with my mine, my point of view changed a bit about this level. I have the feeling that the more I try to research informations about the sand/snow level and his name (and there are a lot, writing them here is too long, I think I have to make an HTML page about them now), the more I"m convinced of my new opinion. Once again, this is impossible to prove anything, but searching informations into the whole game (instead of only DHZ), being a little logical, objective, accurate, and working together (at least this time...) can be very interesting. If we are fighting each other, this topic is a waste of time...

You should continue to post your opinions here. I have the feeling this time we will find something...

[Wetflame]

IceKnight, don't be such a prick. This is as good evidence as any.

There was a desert level. And a level called Dust Hill. Maybe, just maybe, Mystic Caves overwrote Dust Hill in the level select, and was not yet renamed?

As for the title cards, they could have been done externally, or maybe they simply hadn't come up with a name yet, but couldn't leave it blank.

It shows what nerds we've all become =P Things making sense and the english language have become irrelevant to the almighty TECHNICAL EVIDENCE.

Also, why would they have bothered putting GCZ in the level select if it wasn't ever made? People are just acting overly pessimistic to look Smarter looking down on the people who believe in it =P

This post has been edited by Wetflame: 12 September 2004 - 07:29 AM

[Hayate]

It's already been proven that Dust Hill is Mystic Caves.

[Sonic Hachelle-Bee]

bobxp, on Sep 12 2004, 04:13 PM, said:

It's already been proven that Dust Hill is Mystic Caves.

At least for our beta version, yes, this is obvious.
For previous versions of the game we don't have, I think not.
You know, Genocide City zone is in the slot of Death Egg zone in the beta (slot 0E). Can we say that Genocide City zone is the old name of Death Egg zone, because DEZ replaced GCZ after our beta? This name can make sense with the level, but no, DEZ and GCZ are 2 different levels, then...

And I'm sure it's Mystic Cave, not Mystic Caves (with an S). :lol:

[Quickman]

It is not logical to say "There's a name Dust Hill and a desert zone, the two must go together and here's some pictures I took from Google Image Search to prove that". That's not fair from a scientific perspective, nor is it a representative opinion of the people at Sonic Team or at the Sega Technical Institute.

Logic dictates "the slot Dust Hill contains what we know as Mystic Cave, therefore the two are connected and that was the intention of the programmer".

[Frigidare]

Quick Man, on Sep 12 2004, 04:20 PM, said:

Logic dictates "the slot Dust Hill contains what we know as Mystic Cave, therefore the two are connected and that was the intention of the programmer".

However, that connection may not exist. The possibility of a pure coincidence lying between DHZ and MCZ is still there. I doubt anybody at Sega would have had "Dust Hill" pop into their heads as an idea on seeing either Mystic Cave Zone or Desert Zone. I would've seen Mystic Cave Zone and thought "ooh, we'll call that one Ghost Mine Zone" or something.

This post has been edited by MasterEmerald: 12 September 2004 - 10:41 AM

[Sonic Hachelle-Bee]

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It is not logical to say "There's a name Dust Hill and a desert zone, the two must go together and here's some pictures I took from Google Image Search to prove that".

These pictures, for the most part, and these texts, music lyrics, news, were not taken from an image search, but from a deep, serious and objective search. In real life, a dust hill is a dune or some powdery snow, not an underground cavern. Now, you can think what you want...

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That's not fair from a scientific perspective, nor is it a representative opinion of the people at Sonic Team or at the Sega Technical Institute.

A scientific perspective is to go at Sonic Team to ask them (and the programmer) to prove things. There is nothing else to do.

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Logic dictates "the slot Dust Hill contains what we know as Mystic Cave, therefore the two are connected and that was the intention of the programmer".

Logic dictates "this sentence is available only for Sonic 2 Beta v1.54 found by Simon Wai. We can't know what his programmer made before it."

At last, if you are saying that the sand/snow level name is not under our level select of the beta, then where it is? You can't add any other levels under this level select, there is not enough space on the screen. Then, if you think that, the sand/snow level was never under this level select (the zone never existed, even in previous betas), why make some art for a level we can't add into the game at start (with a level select already programmed like this)?
I have a VERY long list of little things like this, all are in favor of the sand/snow level theory, almost nothing for the cave level theory. This is not very scientific as you said, but this is more than enough to convince me (and I think some others). For a scientific and exact proof, go ask Sega in Japan, this is the best way.

EDIT: I'm very tense today, sorry if I offend you, that was not my intention at all.

This post has been edited by Sonic Hachelle-Bee: 12 September 2004 - 11:06 AM

[Drakmyth]

Can't we just ask somebody? Even if it's been 10 years surely they would know if Dust Hill was the original name for Mystic Cave. I mean, the two levels in question (Mystic Cave and Dust Hill) are two entirely different levels (not talking about name here, I mean the concept itself, a cave and a desert) so it should be fairly easy to remember whether or not a level had a certain name IF you were reminded of that name.

So we just ask if the level Mystic Cave was ever called Dust Hill at one point in time. My personal opinion is that it wasn't and Mystic Cave eventually fell into the Dust Hill level slot but there should be someone who knows. Who was the level designer for Mystic Cave? They should know more than anybody.