[E-122-Psi]

Mykonos, on 13 July 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

E-122-Psi, on 13 July 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

The beta version might have worked better as an item searching level like for Knuckles. Some of the early screenies left me wondering whether it was something of expanded Chao Garden, with actual level play to earn more rings and items for quick raising. The wide open areas and seeming capability to back track makes it almost like a dynamic hub world.

NiGHTS also kept its A-LIFE creatures within the stages themselves, so it may have been furthering that idea before splitting them off into their own areas.

The more I think about it, the more I wish they used a sort of 'Sonic's World' idea with the Chao Garden, since it seems a pretty back trackable level and most of the characters seem like they'd be able to maneuver around it. Even in terms of deaths, the area seems surrounded by hovering wind to prevent you falling to your death constantly (even if it still happens due to it's glitchyness). It would have been a cool way of recycling a perfectly good level.

Let's face it, raising Chao is fun in the final but walking around in those tiny gardens was kinda boring.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 14 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

[BlazeHedgehog]

I know a lot of effort went in to it, but man, the camera work in act 3 is kind of disorienting. I feel like I can't see a lot of the time, like the camera's a little too close to Sonic, and pointing a little too much towards the floor. This is further exacerbated by some areas where it will swing what feels like almost 180 degrees VERY rapidly. It seems to twitch a lot, too, like it starts to shift in one direction and then goes in a different one.

But it's nice to finally be able to play something like this, and in general, I think a lot of good work went in to making it functional.

[Dude]

BlazeHedgehog, on 14 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I know a lot of effort went in to it, but man, the camera work in act 3 is kind of disorienting. I feel like I can't see a lot of the time, like the camera's a little too close to Sonic, and pointing a little too much towards the floor. This is further exacerbated by some areas where it will swing what feels like almost 180 degrees VERY rapidly. It seems to twitch a lot, too, like it starts to shift in one direction and then goes in a different one.

But it's nice to finally be able to play something like this, and in general, I think a lot of good work went in to making it functional.

You wouldn't happen to have a recording of that playthrough, would you?

[Catley]

BlazeHedgehog, on 14 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I know a lot of effort went in to it, but man, the camera work in act 3 is kind of disorienting. I feel like I can't see a lot of the time, like the camera's a little too close to Sonic, and pointing a little too much towards the floor. This is further exacerbated by some areas where it will swing what feels like almost 180 degrees VERY rapidly. It seems to twitch a lot, too, like it starts to shift in one direction and then goes in a different one.

But it's nice to finally be able to play something like this, and in general, I think a lot of good work went in to making it functional.

Freecam is the best alternative.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Dude, on 14 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

BlazeHedgehog, on 14 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I know a lot of effort went in to it, but man, the camera work in act 3 is kind of disorienting. I feel like I can't see a lot of the time, like the camera's a little too close to Sonic, and pointing a little too much towards the floor. This is further exacerbated by some areas where it will swing what feels like almost 180 degrees VERY rapidly. It seems to twitch a lot, too, like it starts to shift in one direction and then goes in a different one.

But it's nice to finally be able to play something like this, and in general, I think a lot of good work went in to making it functional.

You wouldn't happen to have a recording of that playthrough, would you?

No, but I could probably make one. I played through the level two or three times and it happened every time. I'll see what I can do tomorrow once I've had some sleep

[muteKi]

Catley, on 13 July 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

Mykonos, on 13 July 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

NiGHTS also kept its A-LIFE creatures within the stages themselves, so it may have been furthering that idea before splitting them off into their own areas.

That... actually makes sense.

Probably not too surprising. Haven't we seen the chao racing around in part of this level in a demo video?

[BlazeHedgehog]

BlazeHedgehog, on 15 July 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

Dude, on 14 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

BlazeHedgehog, on 14 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I know a lot of effort went in to it, but man, the camera work in act 3 is kind of disorienting. I feel like I can't see a lot of the time, like the camera's a little too close to Sonic, and pointing a little too much towards the floor. This is further exacerbated by some areas where it will swing what feels like almost 180 degrees VERY rapidly. It seems to twitch a lot, too, like it starts to shift in one direction and then goes in a different one.

But it's nice to finally be able to play something like this, and in general, I think a lot of good work went in to making it functional.

You wouldn't happen to have a recording of that playthrough, would you?

No, but I could probably make one. I played through the level two or three times and it happened every time. I'll see what I can do tomorrow once I've had some sleep

Instead of doing text or whatever I did a general feedback/commentary video.

https://www.youtube....h?v=mk56zpP9-JQ

There's also a regular run at the end where I go through without talking about how I feel.

[McAleeCh]

muteKi, on 15 July 2014 - 10:49 PM, said:

Catley, on 13 July 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

Mykonos, on 13 July 2014 - 09:43 PM, said:

NiGHTS also kept its A-LIFE creatures within the stages themselves, so it may have been furthering that idea before splitting them off into their own areas.

That... actually makes sense.

Probably not too surprising. Haven't we seen the chao racing around in part of this level in a demo video?

The area shown in videos would seem to be the Chao Garden described in this post earlier in the topic. Its geometry is a direct rip of part of the prototype Windy Valley (complete with a large hole in one side where it intersects with another landmass in the actual stage), but it's its own entity. Notice also that in all videos of the area it only has a plain blue gradient background, even though in the same videos any Windy Valley footage seems to have an actual cloud background for that part of the stage.

[OKei]

BlazeHedgehog, on 16 July 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

Instead of doing text or whatever I did a general feedback/commentary video.

https://www.youtube....h?v=mk56zpP9-JQ

There's also a regular run at the end where I go through without talking about how I feel.

I'm just gonna copy n' paste and extend what I wrote on your video because I know it's gonna be too long for any idiot to read it all on YouTube.

Thank you for making this. You basically nailed everything wrong with the camera, and its further proof that Sonic Adventure really had such a terrible camera system to begin.

What I should share here in regards to the level as a whole (particularly in Act 3) are that some parts (10:51 - 13:30) are too narrow and hard for players to run through confidently on their first few tries.

This version, while non-linear and open field, has too many paths that branch off to too many alternative passages --- which complicates the level. When I first played this level (I actually have a video recording of my having a candid first-time playthough of the level too), I couldn't tell which was the best path to take. Even when you see a trail of rings that are suppose to guide you, it's difficult to tell where you should run off to. The camera even seems to be working against you, having it facing downward toward the ground that disorients you causing you to miss details that you'd otherwise need to know or would be interested in (as shown in 7:29) and the level's quirky design doesn't help at all either. Don't even get me started on that beta Act 2 tornado; that part was just... yuck. Beta Act 1 is broad but again, the camera spoils the sense of exporation that you would've had to explore the level (I hate that wall/camera clipping in 1:17). Stick to Free Camera for that act.

I know I've said this before, but I thought the final Act 3 nailed the thrilling, yet simple-to-blaze-through railways that guided you through the level. Perhaps it was a tad bit "point A to B", but you didn't have to make a lot of unnecessary stops and turns, or objects to jump over that slows the action down -- which is what this beta version does. The final Act 2 tornado had simple, flat platforms to manuver through and the camera wasn't clumsily caught onto the surrounding objects as the beta did. The final Act 1 loses the broadness of the original, but it's more compact and more "focused." I can actually see what's ahead of me. Perhaps its a camera thing.

Now, I appreciate Dude and the team for recreating beta WW (and I still understand that the camera data wasn't readily available for this level and some were custom-made for this mod) but I honestly prefer the final Windy Valley. I know I might be echoing certain statements I wrote before on a WIP build of the restoration mod, but here we have an near 1:1 replica of the original WW to actually play and compare the final version to, and I can say that Sonic Team made a good call redesigning this level. And given around this time when ST still had a good reputation for making good games, that's saying something.

EDIT: I just can't help refining my post.

This post has been edited by OKei: 16 July 2014 - 03:53 AM

[Dude]

BlazeHedgehog, on 16 July 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

BlazeHedgehog, on 15 July 2014 - 05:52 AM, said:

Dude, on 14 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

BlazeHedgehog, on 14 July 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

I know a lot of effort went in to it, but man, the camera work in act 3 is kind of disorienting. I feel like I can't see a lot of the time, like the camera's a little too close to Sonic, and pointing a little too much towards the floor. This is further exacerbated by some areas where it will swing what feels like almost 180 degrees VERY rapidly. It seems to twitch a lot, too, like it starts to shift in one direction and then goes in a different one.

But it's nice to finally be able to play something like this, and in general, I think a lot of good work went in to making it functional.

You wouldn't happen to have a recording of that playthrough, would you?

No, but I could probably make one. I played through the level two or three times and it happened every time. I'll see what I can do tomorrow once I've had some sleep

Instead of doing text or whatever I did a general feedback/commentary video.

https://www.youtube....h?v=mk56zpP9-JQ

There's also a regular run at the end where I go through without talking about how I feel.

I feel as though I should explain some of these. Also remember that we don't understand the game's camera system very well. It is only partially reverse-engineered. There is a feature that I am 99% sure exists, but cannot use as it hasn't been found yet that can solve many of the 'looking at the floor' issues.

1:08 the camera gets that close to sonic to keep from getting embedded in the wall to the immediate left. It's a crappy solution, but there isn't much else to do.

Glitch at 4:16 has a patch. It'll probably show up in the HC version.

Also - I realized something. You're playing in 16:9 mode. SADX crops to 16:9 mode, so you're losing information on the top and bottom (and sides believe it or not) of the screen. This seems to be responsible for many of your 'I can't see where I'm going' moments. Try playing it in a 4:3 window.

You also mentioned the pan speeds several times. Some times it's too slow, some times it's too fast. The problem here is that if you make a slow pan camera and someone is running super fast, they can't see where they're going. If someone is leisurely strolling through an area and you've got a pan speed set up for someone flying through the level, they get disoriented. Even worse, in part 3 where you mentioned the 'quick rapid camera' movements, if someone comes flying through that area of the stage and the camera doesn't move, they will go flying off the side of the stage. Did you notice that in these areas if you just press forward you will (usually) be ok? I can try making some of the pans trigger earlier but there really isn't a whole lot I can do - there's a direct conflict here between players going fast and players who aren't.

Anyways thanks. I'll get to work.

Edit:


Here's how much screen space you're losing.

This post has been edited by Dude: 16 July 2014 - 09:59 AM

[BlazeHedgehog]

I've been thinking about what you said about playing in 4:3 and it dawned on me that I never had a problem seeing anything with official Sonic Adventure levels. After playing it a little today, I think I know why:




The camera's always pretty high up, pointing ahead of Sonic, instead of looking down on him. You keep Sonic centered in the frame a lot, which I think contributes to the problem.

[Dude]

Yup. You're absolutely correct. There's a feature in Generations that does this that I know how to use and like I said in my previous post, I am 99% sure it is in SADX, I just don't know where it is. Basically what it does is it allows you to apply an offset to the entire camera-target-sonic system, moving sonic downwards in the frame. The main reason I put my cameras so low is, since I don't have access to this offset, I have to do something else to put the 'goal direction' at the visual start point of the screen (between the top and a quarter of the way down). If I didn't do this Sonic himself would obstruct your view of where you're going.

Using widescreen zooms the camera in, compounding the problem. Do remember that I didn't play this mod at all in widescreen mode. I never do play sadx in widescreen mode. Just a personal habit.

This post has been edited by Dude: 21 July 2014 - 11:36 AM

[Chibisteven]

Dude, on 21 July 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yup. You're absolutely correct. There's a feature in Generations that does this that I know how to use and like I said in my previous post, I am 99% sure it is in SADX, I just don't know where it is. Basically what it does is it allows you to apply an offset to the entire camera-target-sonic system, moving sonic downwards in the frame. The main reason I put my cameras so low is, since I don't have access to this offset, I have to do something else to put the 'goal direction' at the visual start point of the screen (between the top and a quarter of the way down). If I didn't do this Sonic himself would obstruct your view of where you're going.

Using widescreen zooms the camera in, compounding the problem. Do remember that I didn't play this mod at all in widescreen mode. I never do play sadx in widescreen mode. Just a personal habit.

4:3 would just be a full shot (more height). Kind of reverse of watching a modern TV show or sports event, the 16:9 version is often the full shot (more width) (though sometimes it's the 4:3 version, more height). I never play Sonic Adventure Widescreen either unless you can work extended shots via more width in everything without breaking stuff (offering a wider view into the world of Sonic without zooming it in). Though pre-rendered cutscenes are just doomed without redoing those entirely.

This post has been edited by Chibisteven: 23 July 2014 - 10:37 PM

[OKei]

I forgot to post this sooner, but...

E-122-Psi, on 13 July 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

I think we may have an explanation to Windy Valley's reinnovation:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=oCLzNSg8CSw

Clownacy, on 13 July 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

Are you saying we can't do that in final Windy Valley? :P



It's not as obvious, but still...

Nah...



I'm fairly convinced Windy Valley's renovation (especially Act 3) was partly influenced to how closely reachable the first and last parts of the act were as you can see in my video in 0:07. Even with the collision, the fact that you see that platform and it almost seemingly misleads you to take that unintended path would've pissed off a lot of players and break the level's sequence. What were they thinking even?

Dark Sonic, on 13 July 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

I mean honestly let's just face it. Tails is broken as fuck in this game.

The time trial videos of this early version of the level serve to substantiate its revision.

Laura, on 13 July 2014 - 02:37 PM, said:

On Tails though, we don't know if they planned to pose restrictions on the level, say invisible walls?

We also don't know if Tails was ever intended to be in this beta level. Sure, he's in the early video footage, but a lot of that could just be mockup.

True. After all, characters like Amy are in some unofficial shots of WV where she never normally goes there.

[evilhamwizard]

A few things that I haven't seen posted anywhere in the topic.

First, the light speed dash (attack?) works differently in the AutoDemo. Instead of having the shoes automatically target enemies and rings when fully charged up, you were meant to confirm every target in your radius with the action button. A blue sphere (which I think was shown before?) circles around the next target that you can attack. It even uses a different animation for Sonic too:



The voice data is all here in this build, so I'm curious if Tikal's instructions for the light speed shoes are completely different too. I would love to see the other character's attacks to see what might've changed...

JmTsHaW ported some of the AutoDemo set files over to SADX to see what changed. Some significant changes here and there for Lost World and Egg Carrier:

https://www.youtube....h?v=Kqxo-ZS2tNs

https://www.youtube....h?v=y-vLlCRtLa4

This post has been edited by evilhamwizard: 22 November 2014 - 11:19 AM