[Strife]

It depends on how you execute them, really. For all intents and purposes, the auto-scrolling part of the fight is just an aesthetic that shouldn't affect the actual boss's attack patterns; It only affects the player's movement.

When creating a boss room, a strategic question should be asked: How would increasing the game's resolution affect the boundaries? If yes (which is always the case with invisible walls), then you should add proper boundaries. Taxman had to do this for Spring Yard's boss in the Sonic 1 remake, since otherwise Sonic would be free to stand outside the bridge for the whole fight (which he couldn't do on the Genesis due to the smaller resolution).


On a related note, it may be worth experimenting with large, enclosed boss rooms that take up more than a single screen. I can see some good benefits to creating a boss fight that takes place in a room much larger than the screen, including freedom of movement and more versatility in how to approach and attack the boss. Collision Chaos from Sonic CD and Casino Night from Sonic 2 spring to mind. The latter is actually a really good example of a boss room that doesn't feel so restricting since you can spindash up the walls and ceilings and stuff; It feels like an arena that Robotnik has intentionally trapped you in rather than the game forcefeeding you into a boss battle.

This post has been edited by Strife: 15 August 2013 - 04:24 AM

[TimpZ]

This was a very impressive hack in a lot of ways. I really like the attention to detail at parts such as snow, how the background stretches with perspective, bosses changing their pattern depending on where you are etc. The logo, sound test, CD compatability... all very much impressive.

But as a game I did not find it enjoyable.

Major stuff
I've seen praise regarding level layouts but personally I find this to be the biggest flaw. They're quite bland to be frank. Pretty straight forward, unimaginative and generally don't take good advantage of the physics edits you've made. The first couple levels are almost completely straight with boosters everywhere sending you into bumpers that come flying at you faster than you can react to send you backwards. There are a couple secrets strewn around if you're actually able to stop yourself and explore but it doesn't compensate for the utter linearity of the levels, I don't consider a bunch of platforms high in the air as being much of a separate route. 3rd act is better but still not good, there's not enough interaction or sense of danger for the player

Ancient Castle was a bit better regarding interactive gameplay, but a tight corridor made purely from squares is no place for a hedgehog with spindash, peelout and homing attack that goes nearly or at the speed of a hyper dash from S3K. Doesn't fit the controls at all and is best off played as normal Sonic 1 without hacks. Now if only those speedbosters everywhere were optional too....

The bosses are interesting at first but get old quickly. Not really because the patterns or ideas are bad in any way, I actually quite like them, but 16 hits is way too much when the boss is invincible 90-95% of the time like Sonic is. What makes it worse is that the first ball boss and the Sonic boss give clear signals that they can be hurt, yet you have to wait for just a little bit extra before you can hurt the ball boss and be just a bit quicker for Sonic than what it looks like. It stops being fun after about half of those 16 hits and becomes more of a survival challenge than a fight, mostly because of the boss invincibility times.

The Robotnik boss was my favourite, nothing to complain about at all really. I enjoyed that quite a bit. The lava segment was really interesting but again the unnecessarily long segment of roof falling in right before took away the fun of the experience. I also felt kinda cheated when Sonic instantly died from that lava when he didn't from the rest of the zone. It was also a tiny bit short, I was expecting more of a climb after the roof-sequence.


Minor stuff
You reintroduced "the pit" from Sonic 2!!

Boosters send you the way you're facing, not the way you're going or a predetermined way which gets confusing most of the time.

Having controls locked after a rolljump is fine, I actually prefer it like that since it balances the moves out. But for them to remain locked after (especially a sequence of) homing attacks can get irritating, especially since it has a very long reach and can homing attack into unexpected places

I wasn't aware that the bug where you can't spindash left at the right edge of the screen existed in Sonic 1. Either way it should be adressed, there's a lot of instances where a boss will damage boost you into the right edge and you want to spindash left to get a ring or similar.


Overall I'd say it's definitely worth a playthrough to experience, but it's nothing I'd come back to play in the future. 8.5/10 for tech but 5/10 for gameplay

[steveswede]

Strife, on 15 August 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

It depends on how you execute them, really. For all intents and purposes, the auto-scrolling part of the fight is just an aesthetic that shouldn't affect the actual boss's attack patterns; It only affects the player's movement.

Thing is auto scrolling adds the wrong kind of tension by affecting the players movement. I wasn't clear on my point, creating tension through lack of control is weak compared to great boss design and patterns.

Strife, on 15 August 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

When creating a boss room, a strategic question should be asked: How would increasing the game's resolution affect the boundaries? If yes (which is always the case with invisible walls), then you should add proper boundaries. Taxman had to do this for Spring Yard's boss in the Sonic 1 remake, since otherwise Sonic would be free to stand outside the bridge for the whole fight (which he couldn't do on the Genesis due to the smaller resolution).

Well there were other options like adding more destructible blocks below you but that another discussion altogether.

Strife, on 15 August 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

On a related note, it may be worth experimenting with large, enclosed boss rooms that take up more than a single screen. I can see some good benefits to creating a boss fight that takes place in a room much larger than the screen, including freedom of movement and more versatility in how to approach and attack the boss. Collision Chaos from Sonic CD and Casino Night from Sonic 2 spring to mind. The latter is actually a really good example of a boss room that doesn't feel so restricting since you can spindash up the walls and ceilings and stuff; It feels like an arena that Robotnik has intentionally trapped you in rather than the game forcefeeding you into a boss battle.

I agree with this and is much better than auto scrolling.

This post has been edited by steveswede: 15 August 2013 - 10:28 AM

[Iron Sonic]

Well, good to see that everyone likes the newest version of the Mode 1 code we had stabilized only a few days before vlad implemented it. I certainly rather enjoyed what he did with it. Nice selections to go with a pretty good hack. What complaints I've spotted with it so far, I've already told you on IRC. I mentioned this when you first approached us on the subject, but I'll say it again right now: You know where to find me and the others when you want to start beating on the boundaries of Mode 2 and explore what you can do there. We've got plenty to share.

Keep things rolling, and see where this hack can go, because I always do like seeing what you can come up with.

[vladikcomper]

steveswede, on 15 August 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Strife, on 15 August 2013 - 04:11 AM, said:

It depends on how you execute them, really. For all intents and purposes, the auto-scrolling part of the fight is just an aesthetic that shouldn't affect the actual boss's attack patterns; It only affects the player's movement.

Thing is auto scrolling adds the wrong kind of tension by affecting the players movement. I wasn't clear on my point, creating tension through lack of control is weak compared to great boss design and patterns.

Why? I definitely agree with Stife here, it all depends on how you implement the said concept. Actually, any concept. One can execute a seemingly bad idea in a genius way, creating an amazing experience out of it, and vice versa.

You see, the fact you're mentioning "lack of controls" here is probably because some bad implementation example pops up in your head as we speak of this concept. The controls shouldn't necessarily be slow and awkward -- again, it all depends on how you implement the concept.

I've already got the implementation in mind, and I'm seeing this will allow me for overall better controls. I can set it up the way I want -- physics changes won't be too noticeable on the high speeds or threaten as normal Sonic's behavior at least, as the hedgehog is know to feel well when running extremely fast. Moreover, this should provide players the whole different experience than normal levels or boss fights -- there's no way Sonic's ordinary physics and acceleration can work here, so this must be a new experience with slightly different physics. The later allows me to bypass the problems I had with my past bosses, as slow Sonic's acceleration as opposed to awkwardly fast homing attacks didn't work for accuracy, especially in small boss arenas. Here, I can change acceleration to what I want and homing attack won't be too fast at the high speeds (I can even disable it at all). At least, I'm seeing it this way.

Quote

I've seen praise regarding level layouts but personally I find this to be the biggest flaw. They're quite bland to be frank. Pretty straight forward, unimaginative and generally don't take good advantage of the physics edits you've made. The first couple levels are almost completely straight with boosters everywhere sending you into bumpers that come flying at you faster than you can react to send you backwards. There are a couple secrets strewn around if you're actually able to stop yourself and explore but it doesn't compensate for the utter linearity of the levels, I don't consider a bunch of platforms high in the air as being much of a separate route. 3rd act is better but still not good, there's not enough interaction or sense of danger for the player

This, and some other things you've pointed out in your review actually make a good sense. Thanks for giving me a good amount of reasoned criticism.

I have to agree, level layouts aren't the strongest part of the hack so far. Thanks to lots of playthroughs different people made as well as some feedback, I've realized a lot of mistakes I've done in layouts. Now I'm thinking of redoing the entire level layouts and probably tweaking physics to make the gameplay overall more balanced.

To be fair, I wasn't too fond of the GHZ 1 and 2 layouts from the beginning. It's good to see you've noticed a bit of quality difference between them and GHZ 3. The first 2 layouts were made back in 2010, merely changed since, I lacked a lot of experience then as they were almost the first layouts I've ever made. I always tried my best, working them out quite carefully, but looking at them today, I admit I've made a lot of mistakes and dick moves there. The GHZ 3 layout is something I've created years later, in the beginning of 2013. Apparently, I hadn't done any new layouts since 2010 by that moment, but I at least realized some design mistakes in the previous layouts.

[steveswede]

vladikcomper, on 18 August 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

You see, the fact you're mentioning "lack of controls" here is probably because some bad implementation example pops up in your head as we speak of this concept. The controls shouldn't necessarily be slow and awkward -- again, it all depends on how you implement the concept.

Bad controls to me is the Sonic Advance bosses and Mushroom Hill boss. The way I see it is that if you have to consistently hold one direction with the occasional release of said direction for "control" of Sonic is weak compared to avoiding patterns and attacking on a opening. If you have something different in mind that you think would work better then yeah I look forward to seeing what you bring to the table to see if you can change my mind on them.


Oh I just remembered the great eggman robo the way that auto scrolls and I suppose that is the correct balance of auto scrolling and control over Sonic, so yeah I was wrong to jump to the conclusion that all auto scrolling boss battles are weak.

[Strife]

As far as constantly holding right during an autoscrolling section goes, I think it helps if it's not mandatory to hold it down in order to keep moving. My project has a boss in the third stage that's autoscrolling, and what I do is basically make it so that pressing nothing automatically makes the character move at the same speed as the boss. This makes the player control the same as if they were stationary except for higher air drag.

In any case, I think variety is key. As much as Sonic Advance 2's bosses made logical sense for the speed-focused physics, they got old quick. Advance 3 handled it better by having stationary bosses in moderately-sized rooms that give you some breathing space to move around. That's honestly the kind of boss fights I think would fit well in this hack beyond one or two chase bosses to get the player used to how things work.

[steveswede]

Big boss rooms are definitely better IMO so I agree with you there. As for your boss battle, I really think something like that would destroy the feel of playing a Sonic game. I mean if you're going to have normal Sonic controls throughout the game and then just change them for a boss is like throwing in a mini game to your game, you may as well stick Sonic in a ship and go full R-Type.

[MachOneSonic]

Uhhh....?