[Hukos]

Given Classic Sonic's history of non-linear level design, do you think something like this would work? The idea is that something like Rondo of Blood. For those uninitiated with it, what level you go to is based on where you finish the level, and not simply getting to the end goal. Different paths have different levels, different design philosophies, and different bosses.

Marble Garden Zone kind of has something like this, in that the Sonic and Knuckles paths feature different bosses in act 2 (And it is technically possible for Sonic to fight Knuckles boss, and vice versa through a very convoluted and difficult means of glitching the shit out of the game), but the character's starting position in Carnival Night Zone is fixed based on the character itself, and not where the level was finished. So it's wasted potential.

Consider our example, Marble Garden. Let's say the player could finish either path without needing to glitch the game. Finishing each route would open up a different level, and the player would face a different boss fight. This would open up a lot of possibilities with Sonic's non-linear level design, and give the chance for a lot of levels in a single game without having to play all of them (You could say, have 20 levels in a single game but only need to play through about 8 of them to beat it). You could also do a path that emphasis clearing through levels in a very speedy fashion and a path that emphasizes more on exploration, and possibly one that's more suited to players who want a more difficult Sonic experience. Of course you'd also get the people bitching that they can't experience all the levels in one playthrough, but eh, can't please everyone.

Would this be a gameplay style you'd like to see in a Sonic game?

[Palas]

A great idea, most certainly. To me, it's the natural step after Sonic 3 Knuckles (in a classic philosophy of level design) for several reasons:

a) it allows more complexity in replay value using different characters with different abilities.
b) it also allows much deeper stories, now featuring choices and dilemmas - WITHOUT having to use actual storytelling means. It's still telling a story through gameplay.
c) it allows Sonic CD's main idea, time travel, to achieve an unforeseen level of complexity in terms of transition, progression and world-building.
d) we can not only design non-linear levels, but also non-linear goals. Branching level progression has a thousand ways to be made possible and that means using Sonic's moveet and dynamics in completely different ways.

[doc eggfan]

I was planning to do something like this in my Sonic 2 (16-bit) Hack. It was going to be a trilogy of 3 episodes (with a secret 4th episode), but it was going to be like Outrun, with 2 versions of Episode 2 and 3 versions of Episode 3. Depending on whether the player collects the maximum number of chaos emeralds in each episode, they would progress to either a good or bad version of the subsequent episode. I'll probably never get around to finishing it.

[GT Koopa]

Flicky Turncoat DX kinda does this. I have bonus exits in some acts that go to a secret different starting point for the next act. Ironically, MegaGWolf only seems to know the secret exit route. Also ironically, everyone else can't get the "trick" for the secret exit to work so they just go the normal exit.

Come on Hukos, step it up!

This post has been edited by GT Koopa: 18 April 2013 - 09:17 PM

[Jason]

Wasn't the only thing that Shadow the Hedgehog received praise for was its branching level structure? I've had the disdain of playing it, and there is merit to the approach. Just take away the hunting bits and grinding (find/kill X amount of things) and replace it with multiple Goal Rings, like some of the stages in Sonic Colors, and boom.

[Rika Chou]

My old hack had different ending/starting points, but only between acts.

[Kail]

Shadow the Hedgehog was a game you could beat in an hour and once you're done you go back to try to branch out and you realize that was a horrible idea and you wish they just let you get to the other levels in a more sane manner.

[Jason]

Again, that's because of the crappy fetching and grinding to get anywhere other than neutral path, which was usually just find the Goal Ring. However, if there were multiple Goal Rings that would fit into a story arc, than that might be interesting. For example, in a hypothetical Sonic Triple Trouble 2, the start of the game would be chasing the three antagonists, only to narrowing down who to take on based on the path taken in each level leading to a different Goal Ring in the direction one of the antagonists went. No destroying all of the badniks to go after one, or collecting a certain amount of some macguffin to follow another, but maybe a time limit on the same Goal Ring could work. Adds more replayability and beats taking 2 hours to complete an entire Sonic game.

This post has been edited by Jason: 18 April 2013 - 11:25 PM

[TheKazeblade]

GREAT idea. Shadow the Hedgehog's level progression was a step in the right direction, and for the most part, did it right. The only big difference being, instead of objectives causing the route to change, it should be decided entirely on multiple goal rings, and the goal ring reached will send you to a different next stage, cutscene and story progression.

[Jayextee]

There's no reason why it wouldn't work, and would explain the multiple exits in Spring Yard and Collision Chaos 2.

[Hukos]

Kail, on 18 April 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Shadow the Hedgehog was a game you could beat in an hour and once you're done you go back to try to branch out and you realize that was a horrible idea and you wish they just let you get to the other levels in a more sane manner.

There's a reason I used Castlevania Rondo of Blood as a comparison, and not Shadow the Hedgehog

[Covarr]

I like the idea of branching to different levels, but I feel like for this to be effective, the game would need to have more levels than Sonic games typically have; at least twenty different zones would be the minimum, IMO. Otherwise, either individual playthroughs are too short because each branch has too few levels, or there either aren't enough unique levels per playthrough (making it a chore to get to every level), or there aren't enough branches for the feature to be meaningful.

[Palas]

Even though Shadow the Hedgehog had a stupid way to access different branches, their thought was right. If there are only additional goal rings determining what's the next level, what's the difference? I mean, there is the ultimate risk of having a player getting a bad ending and having no idea of how he got there. And stopping the level altogether to say "hey, this way or that way" is silly too. There are other ways, like using different versions of the same level as a pointer. Or activating different branches according to how long the player takes to finish the level, using when instead of where.

[winterhell]

I've though about this before. In Golden Axe III, the branching changes the length and the difficulty of the game. Sure, it increases the replayability tremendously, not just because it takes more time to see everything in the game but also makes it less repetetive and fresh.

I'm afraid with the modern gamer that would be a waste of development budget and resources. People expect a system when your progress gets saved every now and then, in a manner that you don't have to go back to previous stages ever again if you want to finish the game. Let alone try/discover new routes to new levels.

I'm against the Sonic 3 kind of save system where you go to a level with 1 life, lose it and resume with 3 lives from the same level. There was an F1 game that let you save your game between events, but that worked as a Pause. You had only one shot at the next event. If I'm making a save system for a platformer it'd go in similar fashion.
This being said, Branching allows for the time you spend on one sit to be kept shorter, and if a Sonic game is made with, say, more than 8 zones, then there could be some branching so that the longplay is kept just under 1 hour.

This post has been edited by winterhell: 19 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

[Covarr]

Palas, on 19 April 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Even though Shadow the Hedgehog had a stupid way to access different branches, their thought was right. If there are only additional goal rings determining what's the next level, what's the difference? I mean, there is the ultimate risk of having a player getting a bad ending and having no idea of how he got there. And stopping the level altogether to say "hey, this way or that way" is silly too. There are other ways, like using different versions of the same level as a pointer. Or activating different branches according to how long the player takes to finish the level, using when instead of where.

In terms of how alternate branches are accessed, I think New Super Mario Bros. got this very right, and is an excellent source to imitate. After completing world 2, you normally go to world 3, but there's a very obvious space for tiny Mario to reach an alternate path (World 4). It's a safe bet most players won't get it in their first playthrough, but it's something they can be prepared for in a second playthrough. A path that's obvious, but only after it's too late to take it, prevents the game from being too frustrating, while preventing the flow from being broken. Hell, the Metroid franchise uses a variation on this concept like crazy; you see a path, but you can't take it when you see it, because you don't have the needed item or powerup. The only difference is that you're expected to get the powerup and backtrack, rather than playing from the beginning again.