[E-122-Psi]

I thought this might be appropriate so as to avoid derailing the two ports' threads concerning the discussion of the unused content (which is admittedly a stretch in relation to what they may have, and in the case of CD, was outright debunked).

A lot of people want to see remakes of the unfinished levels in the series like Hidden Palace and Wood Zone, etc, but said the finished remains of them in most games are either completely bare bones or outright non existent in terms of structure and design. Even Hidden Palace isn't even half finished. Several hacks have attempted to make their own ideal finished designs, but many of them are either very limited due to the remains of properties they have or have to use completely new ones to give it a satisfying play through.

So, the question is, how do you think the real deals would have turned out finished?

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 18 April 2013 - 08:57 AM

[KingofHarts]

You're really asking two questions here. Your topic title asks how would we design them, while the topic itself asks how would they have turned out finished?

I'll answer them both... with regards to SONIC 2 zones.

Second question first... impossible to tell, really. Because everything was either half done, or non existent, there is no way of knowing, or even giving an educated guess. I mean... the best that one could do is look through the concept art and the interviews here on Retro... and even THAT gives a limited answer. So that's a tough question that perhaps there is no answer.

As for the first question...
I'd have Hidden Palace (S2) be a complete 2 act Zone... One with an underwater gimmick, and the other with a vertical scrolling gimmick placed somewhere through the level.
Perhaps Act 1 be looping, and have the elevator shaft placed near the end, and lined with enemies. Act 2 be the underwater phase. As for a boss... who knows?

Wood Zone... (Name: Great Forest Zone) I like to think Sonic 2 Retro Remix did a fairly good job with it... though I'd add the gimmick with Bees that shoot fireballs to burn down certain areas (namely some bridges/walkways connecting trees), have it be bottomless pit heavy, due to being up high with trees. How about some chainsaws and the like since Robotnik would like to slash and burn the forest? As for other gimmicks/ideas... see Donkey Kong Country and go for that kind of feel... there is a treetop level somewhere I would draw some influence from. I'd also like to make Act 2 a vertically moving level in the inside of a tree. (A la Great Deku Tree... if that makes any sense, comparison wise)

Dust Hill Zone would retain its name, and take on a double environment, with desert and ice themes. Maybe throw in ice physics for the second act? An idea for a boss would be in the Winter act, having Sonic face Robotnik over a series of Ice/Snow blocks, and Robotnik would adopt a strategy similar to Sonic 1's Spring Yard Zone, only with a flamethrower to melt the ice instead of a spike.

Rock Zone... dunno if I would bother including this one, but if I did, it would have that gimmick from Little Big Planet where there is a vertical pit, and rocks fall from above and take you down... that's all I've got for you there.

Cyber City would just need to be Metropolis Act 3, with an appearance similar to the Machine from Sonic Spinball... and some new gimmicks. Maybe the scrapped elevator idea for Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone, and definitely some new badniks... Sonic CD had a lot of things that could work for this type of level... actually.

Death Egg Zone (S2) could use a full new first act, starting outside in space, and coming inside. Perhaps instead of a signpost you face Metal Sonic. Second act would be the final battle. Third act would be a death chase... with Sonic trying to escape the exploding Egg (With the Sonic 2 BETA Death Egg Zone music, for an added feel of rush and panic). Think of a 2D version of the post-Andross fight from Starfox 64... that is what I'm going for... THAT is how I want to do MY Death Egg Zone.

Anyway there is a rough idea. Let's build on it.

[RuRi]

Mushroom Hill and Sandopolis is pretty much Wood Zone and Dust zone, but they expanded them to make them more unique and fit the Sonic 3 style.

[Dark Sonic]

RuRi, on 18 April 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Mushroom Hill and Sandopolis is pretty much Wood Zone and Dust zone, but they expanded them to make them more unique and fit the Sonic 3 style.

I always thought that Dust Hill zone would have been more similarly designed to a westernized cartoon desert, much like Road Runner cartoons, which could have lead to some very different designs I feel.

That and now that I think about it, it would have made sense for dust hill to go where Mystic Cave went (since that level did take over Dust Hill anyway). You go into the Mountains with Hill top, then you descend into the desert, and then you head off to the oil refinery (and then from there I always thought that Metropolis Zone was the oil refinery due to those buildings in the background of Oil Ocean). Not that level order really mattered in Sonic 2, as I honestly can't think of any way the first four levels connect, unless Chemical Plant came somewhere after Metropolis and Casino Night zone was after Hill top or after where Dust Hill would have been in tribute to Vegas being in the middle of the desert.

[ICEknight]

Even if they were never implemented, the original maps must be out there, somewhere. That's the best way they could ever be done. =P

[Covarr]

I've seen too many Wood Zone hacks that basically take the unfinished crap that's there and repeat it over and over again, as though it were almost finished and it just needs extra length. Bad jumping segments, Metropolis-style tubes that don't function, etc. This is clearly not a good way to complete a scrapped layout.

Hidden Palace Zone already has some decent source material, so I think less important than design ideas are the design process. What I would do is first design the rest of Act 1 without changing anything that's already there. Once a first draft is finished from start to signpost, I'd lift my self-imposed ban on changing the existing areas, and start testing and revising based on what I feel works and doesn't. It could end up significantly different from what's there, but I think the existing material would (mostly) be kept. Act 2 work wouldn't even start until I'm completely satisfied with Act 1, and it would be based on whatever ideas naturally came out during Act 1's development. The key here is that I feel like HPZ already had some natural motifs and is a very good starting point; it just needs expanding on.

Wood Zone's layout would likely be scrapped entirely, because it's barely complete, and utter shit. What little there is has already been done better in Metropolis Zone, and doesn't fit the theme of the level anyway. I would probably make this level more vertical than average, with a strong, active emphasis on really bringing to life the multi-tiered design that merely exists in other levels. I'm thinking climb a tree at the beginning (curved root = spindash to top? springs? column of two trees with jumpable branches? mystic cave vines? this needs fleshing out), and this always puts you at the top path (treetops). Over the course of the level, there are places to drop to the middle (branches) and bottom (dirt/ground) paths, but eventually you get forced top again in much the same manner as the first time; this cycle would repeat a few times. This would obviously require major art changes, but I think it'd be worth it.

One gimmick I thought of, which I don't know if it's a good idea without testing, is that jumping or dropping through a bunch of leaves between paths would switch Sonic to falling (same as OOZ slides). It'd be largely inconsequential, since I don't approve of dick enemy placement underneath, but it could help give the zone a more unique tone. For the boss, I'm thinking trees like ARZ pillars, eggmobile attached to one of them slides up and down (off the top of the screen on one allows him to come down the other side), with some kind of saw attached. He occasionally turns off the saw and fires a woodchipper at sonic, which leaves an opening to attack him (this ain't sonic 3d blast, we're not gonna have openings for no reason).

I wouldn't bother with zones that were never implemented in any fashion. Genocide City and the like hold no interest to me.

This post has been edited by Covarr: 18 April 2013 - 11:56 AM

[Hukos]

Hidden Palace - I'd probably make it somewhat similar to the design of Aquatic Ruin Zone (Water sections that are completely optional if you have the skill to stay on the upper paths), but actually give a flowing object to the river sections so they push against you. I'd scrap the Master Emerald object (Because we already have it in S3&K) and add a few more tubes in more areas to have multiple paths.

Dust Hill Zone - We already have Dust Hill, it's called Mystic Cave Oh I kid, I kid. I'm not sure how I would handle it. My first thought is a slightly varied Sandopolis Act 1 with some different gimmicks to differentiate it from that level, but I'm still not entirely sure how to handle it.

Wood Zone - I liked how Retro Remix handled it (even though it wasn't specifically called wood zone, it's fucking wood zone and you know it), so I would just make it something like that. I think a huge, sprawling, very open level with lots of top paths being the tops of large trees and shit would work well.

Rock Zone - Fuck if I know. Maybe take some platforming cues from Marble Zone (Before you rage at me, I mean the outside portions, not in the inside ones) and add some cool gimmicks?


Cyber City - Take Metropolis Act 3, add the Machine background to it, there you go

[E-122-Psi]

KingofHarts, on 18 April 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

You're really asking two questions here. Your topic title asks how would we design them, while the topic itself asks how would they have turned out finished?

Fair point. I guess a bit of both, how would ideally have them work, albeit keeping within the realms of how they could likely be done by the developers.


I think even for all Hidden Palace had got finished, it was still rather bare bones. Especially when you look at how many hacks structure extra areas (the near empty underwater areas for example, what exactly would go in them?). There are some parts that would interest me if expanded enough, eg. the elevator area, or the water slides that seemingly have no function as is, but it would need a fair bit more to add up to all it's hype. Adding more badniks may work a little concerning existing data (the remaining prehistoric ones were likely built for it at some point). I could maybe picture some more mystical gimmicks to blend in with the levels mysterious nature too, stuff like non mechanical teleporters and what not.

I agree that Sonic Retro Remix did a better job recreating a Wood Zone, though even then it feels a tad bland. The aforementioned idea of industrial obstacles to befit the 'nature vs pollution' setup would maybe give it a bit more of a gimmick, not to mention act as an amusing semi nod to Satam. Avoiding giant buzz saws and axes, going through logs about to be sawn through.

Dust Hill or Desert Dazzle (the latter was blatantly a nod to the original so they could more or less be the same thing), some how the mentioning of it being a Road Runner-esque desert makes me picture it as being rather fast paced. Lots of loop de loops and boosters, albeit with sand related obstacles to completely break your momentum (probably some well placed 'roadblock' badniks like that snail to occasionally take you by surprise too).

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 18 April 2013 - 01:03 PM

[Palas]

I'd scrap both altogether and start them over.

Both Hidden Palace and Wood Zone are incomplete, displaced and are out of the final project. No matter how great the source material might have been, we have no idea of how it was supposed to fit in terms of composition and progress. It's not useful to be conservative and keeping whatever they had there. Thus, I disagree with this:

Quote

Even if they were never implemented, the original maps must be out there, somewhere. That's the best way they could ever be done. =P

Because if the best way they could ever be done didn't make it to the game, there's no point.

Problem is, rethinking the levels is to rethink the game. Even if we design the single best Hidden Palace possible, it'd be counter-productive if we put it as a normal level right before Mystic Cave, since MCZ would be rendered ddevoid of its own brilliance. Recurring to "where they were supposed to be in the first place" is not an option either, because we then have no idea as of why they should be there. It's a matter of composing the game again.

So Wood Zone is a huge problem because, visually, it's some sort of Aquatic Ruin sans water. Sonic 2 not having the most seamless progression ever, using Wood Zone as a transition between Emerald Hill and Aquatic Ruin would be interesting to improve this aspect, but would demand Chemical Plant to be moved to the slot after Aquatic Ruin. It's not at all a bad option and would enrich the game's sense of continuity, but how would that affect Chemical Plant? Placing Wood Zone elsewhere feels awkward to me, even with the conveyor belts matching it to Metropolis and whatnot.

Hidden Palace is yet another problem. Would we place them as a normal level? As the level to be warped to after collecting the Chaos Emeralds? If it turned out to be like this, its structure wouldn't matter much, since it wouldn't contribute to composition. But I'm sure the single-level model would work much better.

Dust Hill... heh. it depends on all other levels. Did they want a fast-paced game in terms of how you travel through the ambients? If such is the case, there's no place for it. The idea of making it fast-paced itself is great, especially because it'd be an opposition to its desolated visuals and supposed music. But would we make of Oil Ocean?

This post has been edited by Palas: 18 April 2013 - 07:51 PM

[Sparks]

Wood Zone and Hidden Palace Zone feel lackluster because they lack almost any level objects. If they were to be finalized levels, they would need to have more gimmicks for each level. Hidden Palace feels like it was meant to have some, but uses collapsing platforms as temporary placeholders to navigate the level (there's a bunch of higher up areas, not to mention the unfinished level design). I feel Wood Zone was unfinished graphically too. Half of the tree tiles look broken, as if their edges weren't drawn yet. The whole zones graphics look sloppy, and the tileset in Sonic 2 Beta doesn't seem like its ideal for making a full zone. Also what Palas said, you would have to make sure Dust Hill, Wood, and Hidden Palace each felt like unique levels compared to the other zones.

Wood Zone seems like it was starting out as some kind of tree-top lumber yard, with the conveyer belts and the wood holes similar in pattern to Metropolis.

Hidden Palace Zone only gives collapsing platforms, an elevator, tube pipes, and breakable gems as hints towards the zone it was going to be. Maybe some kind of fantasy magic zone?

Course, this is just 3am speculation.

[Dark Sonic]

Maybe we'll find out more about those levels from Taxman, since he did get some previously unknown R2 sprites and info from developing Sonic CD. Perhaps he'll reveal some more secrets about final level layouts or what not.

[Walnut]

I would be absolutely SHOCKED if he ends up getting more than what we already know on Sonic 2

It kind of feels like the one game in the franchise that we got about everything feasible on

[Vangar]

I'd say if we see anything, it would be because he gets access to some archive materials that have never been released. Like printed documentation that has been kept in SoA, or something.

[Retroman]

Rock Zone, I'd make alot of sections crumble like Green Hill Zone, but not overload. It would be like Lion King Sega Genesis' first level. I'd make it pretty much a jump with precision game as there's some bottomless pits with bottom floors covering some of them, so you don't fall to your doom. It's a depressed atmosphere, you got dead trees in a once-full of life river now reduced to nothingness thanks to Robotnik's mining.

There will be some shell enemies, and the Rhino Bots, etc.

It will also have Stone-Loops, and have a section where you have to get on the non-wobbly platforms at the top while the El-Nino spreads. When you are in the El-Nino, it functions like the sand in S&K, but drags you to the right.

It will have rocks that are smashable that brings powerups underneath them, and the boss would be the Egg Granite, which is a machine that can dig rock underneath, and hurl them at Sonic, dig underground, and dig a tunnel going to a section that shoots Mud with Rocks. The weakness is the rocks being the platform within Robotnik's reach.

Wood Zone would be pretty much like Mushroom Hill Zone, and have drill-bot badniks on one-wheelies.

The Boss would be a mini-boss that is a heavy badnik, called a heavenik that smashes a tree and uses it as a weapon. He can jump across and he can throw logs, and cut wood with his axe. His weakpoints is the wood swinging that creates a suction to Sonic, in which Sonic can jump to hit the mechanical engine and undefended areas.

[Dan Lioneye]

Dunno about you guys/girls, but when I try to think about possible features "Rock Zone" might have had, I think about features and bosses that ended up in other levels. Like Mystic Cave boss, Hill Top raising ground/raising lava section, Sandopolis miniboss, and pretty much everything that featured in Lava Reef.