[Azukara]

I feel like if there's any loss of control the player would have, it'd be very brief at longest. Anything longer than that will probably be set to a 2D sidescroller movement when worst comes to worst, instead of straight up automating the path. I feel like that's the answer to a lot of questions about loops or really crazy spirals or something; just put the path you take on that to a spline. It holds back control in regards to moving side to side, but whenever going through something like that, I'm not sure if it's really that necessary (minus the occasional wider loop where it'd be exception or something).

Besides that, I don't know many areas that would require you to take control away from the player for it to be exciting, even when using a specific camera angle. For example, the wall-running segments in Adventure (particularly the one in Emerald Coast) are amongst my favorite areas in the whole game, and they not only use dynamic camera angles but also give you full control. I don't think there's any sort of excitement lost in that; it's all in the fun of building up your speed to make it to some high-up path, or a hidden object, and I kinda feel the same about a lot of things like loops and etc too.

Not saying I'd never make a level that doesn't feature dash pads (I actually love them when used sparingly) but yeah.

[Dude]

Azukara, on 03 October 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I feel like if there's any loss of control the player would have, it'd be very brief at longest. Anything longer than that will probably be set to a 2D sidescroller movement when worst comes to worst, instead of straight up automating the path. I feel like that's the answer to a lot of questions about loops or really crazy spirals or something; just put the path you take on that to a spline. It holds back control in regards to moving side to side, but whenever going through something like that, I'm not sure if it's really that necessary (minus the occasional wider loop where it'd be exception or something).

I'm not saying you have to use dash panels in your project. I'm giving you insight into the purpose they served in the context of the original adventure games. Obviously you can (and should) try coming up with different solutions. But you should know of the problems Sonic Team faced while designing the adventure games as well as the solutions they chose and why they chose them so that you can avoid making mistakes that have already been made. Don't re-invent the wheel as it were.

Quote

Besides that, I don't know many areas that would require you to take control away from the player for it to be exciting, even when using a specific camera angle. For example, the wall-running segments in Adventure (particularly the one in Emerald Coast) are amongst my favorite areas in the whole game, and they not only use dynamic camera angles but also give you full control. I don't think there's any sort of excitement lost in that; it's all in the fun of building up your speed to make it to some high-up path, or a hidden object, and I kinda feel the same about a lot of things like loops and etc too.

It isn't just about the camera's angle, it is the angle and position relative to the player. The amount the position and angle change per-frame (as well as field of view) contribute directly to the difficulty in controlling the character, as well as *adding* to the overall sense of speed. In this sense, you have two conflicting incentives here. The player's agency versus their engagement with the game. Many of the wall sections in Sonic Adventure only worked because they slowly eased into position, but countrary to what you have said, many of the notable examples do *not* give you control for the entire section. Speed highway explicitly places dash panels during the hardest parts to navigate of the transition (which is when the camera is moving) to prevent the players from flying off into the distance. This exact setup is used in 2 out of the three wall running sections in speed highway. Yes, there are no dash panels after the transition, but the transition is exactly when they are needed the most.

The thing you may or may not know about dash panels is that the two major properties nearly every implementation has are:
- a control lockout timer
- a speed value

They let you set the lockout timer *per object* so that you can tweak each one to be contextually appropriate. In fact, it isn't just the dash panels that have this setup. Springs use it too. If you want proof of why these are absolutely necessary, go play my old mod Sonic RDX. You will quickly get aggravated and quit because these lockout timers were not used at all.

I guess my overall point is that taking control away from the player isn't a bad thing. It is a tool that can be used incorrectly, but it is absolutely necessary for both pacing and assisting the player through certain areas. What you should do, is playtest rigorously and watch how players are interacting with your layout. They will struggle with certain areas. Create assist devices that give your player a helping hand, but do not do all of the work for them.

Feel free to ask me anything else about the design of the games. I can't be your level designer because between my job and SA:gens I'm tapped out. But I am available to offer crits and analysis.

[silva rymes]

Hey, you know what would be a neat idea? If you guys wouldn't mind, as well as open up the project a bit, perhaps get a advisement group of sorts together strictly for level design discussion. Mostly for the sake of getting some level heads on the matter without having them really draw anything out. Just brainstorm and converse freely.

That way we can really hear everyone's ideas on it and be able to more easily share all the assets/info/etc. to help that along. Azu might be cool adding more smart guys to the team, especially if we can get some fresh eyes to look at what we have and think up some really good stuff. Azu of course would do all the grunt work of drawing it all out, since he's perfect for it! (jk)

Maybe it sounds dumb, but I'll leave it up to you guys. Just figure I would ask. Haha.

This post has been edited by silva rymes: 04 October 2014 - 10:43 PM

[Tiller]

Dude, on 03 October 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Azukara, on 03 October 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I feel like if there's any loss of control the player would have, it'd be very brief at longest. Anything longer than that will probably be set to a 2D sidescroller movement when worst comes to worst, instead of straight up automating the path. I feel like that's the answer to a lot of questions about loops or really crazy spirals or something; just put the path you take on that to a spline. It holds back control in regards to moving side to side, but whenever going through something like that, I'm not sure if it's really that necessary (minus the occasional wider loop where it'd be exception or something).

I'm not saying you have to use dash panels in your project. I'm giving you insight into the purpose they served in the context of the original adventure games. Obviously you can (and should) try coming up with different solutions. But you should know of the problems Sonic Team faced while designing the adventure games as well as the solutions they chose and why they chose them so that you can avoid making mistakes that have already been made. Don't re-invent the wheel as it were.

Quote

Besides that, I don't know many areas that would require you to take control away from the player for it to be exciting, even when using a specific camera angle. For example, the wall-running segments in Adventure (particularly the one in Emerald Coast) are amongst my favorite areas in the whole game, and they not only use dynamic camera angles but also give you full control. I don't think there's any sort of excitement lost in that; it's all in the fun of building up your speed to make it to some high-up path, or a hidden object, and I kinda feel the same about a lot of things like loops and etc too.

It isn't just about the camera's angle, it is the angle and position relative to the player. The amount the position and angle change per-frame (as well as field of view) contribute directly to the difficulty in controlling the character, as well as *adding* to the overall sense of speed. In this sense, you have two conflicting incentives here. The player's agency versus their engagement with the game. Many of the wall sections in Sonic Adventure only worked because they slowly eased into position, but countrary to what you have said, many of the notable examples do *not* give you control for the entire section. Speed highway explicitly places dash panels during the hardest parts to navigate of the transition (which is when the camera is moving) to prevent the players from flying off into the distance. This exact setup is used in 2 out of the three wall running sections in speed highway. Yes, there are no dash panels after the transition, but the transition is exactly when they are needed the most.

The thing you may or may not know about dash panels is that the two major properties nearly every implementation has are:
- a control lockout timer
- a speed value

They let you set the lockout timer *per object* so that you can tweak each one to be contextually appropriate. In fact, it isn't just the dash panels that have this setup. Springs use it too. If you want proof of why these are absolutely necessary, go play my old mod Sonic RDX. You will quickly get aggravated and quit because these lockout timers were not used at all.

I guess my overall point is that taking control away from the player isn't a bad thing. It is a tool that can be used incorrectly, but it is absolutely necessary for both pacing and assisting the player through certain areas. What you should do, is playtest rigorously and watch how players are interacting with your layout. They will struggle with certain areas. Create assist devices that give your player a helping hand, but do not do all of the work for them.

Feel free to ask me anything else about the design of the games. I can't be your level designer because between my job and SA:gens I'm tapped out. But I am available to offer crits and analysis.

This is pretty much spot on on how Dash Panels work. They're a fun gimmick that helps steer and direct Sonic, but I would like to think current Sonic is way too over reliant on them from a level design aspect. They're at the core of a lot of set pieces from Unleashed onwards and they govern a lot of the state changing and are now a necessary staple given how Modern Sonic controls. They have become so pervasive that the idea of using them as the ultimate tool for setting the pace has wormed its way into places that they are completely unnecessary. Lost World's whole thing was the player being in charge of the pace, and yet every level is loaded up with dash pads for a variety of reasons. Combined to a lesser extent with launch pads and springs it has created this artificial and constrained approach to the newer games that locks the player out more often then they're in control. If you take a step back and look at what you want to do with level design you can build a better Sonic to let players tackle it.

silva rymes, on 04 October 2014 - 10:38 PM, said:

Hey, you know what would be a neat idea? If you guys wouldn't mind, as well as open up the project a bit, perhaps get a advisement group of sorts together strictly for level design discussion. Mostly for the sake of getting some level heads on the matter without having them really draw anything out. Just brainstorm and converse freely.

That way we can really hear everyone's ideas on it and be able to more easily share all the assets/info/etc. to help that along. Azu might be cool adding more smart guys to the team, especially if we can get some fresh eyes to look at what we have and think up some really good stuff. Azu of course would do all the grunt work of drawing it all out, since he's perfect for it! (jk)

Maybe it sounds dumb, but I'll leave it up to you guys. Just figure I would ask. Haha.

Sounds like fun. Just remember too many hands in the cookie jar can result in chaos but a healthy discussion on level design would be beneficial.

This post has been edited by Tiller: 05 October 2014 - 10:16 PM

[Faseeh]

Thirding (lol) the discussion idea. I'd love to join in and chip in. I do hope like Azukara or the team looks at what the designer has to offer before adding them to the discussion however. If they're offering something way off from what this game is going for, chaos is ensured. I'm sure Azukara and the team would know what they're doing.

[silva rymes]

Tiller, on 05 October 2014 - 10:15 PM, said:

Sounds like fun. Just remember too many hands in the cookie jar can result in chaos but a healthy discussion on level design would be beneficial.

You are all too right. The recent downsizing definitely helped with keeping things out of that chaos zone. Got to have some good heads on-board with the right focus.

Faseeh, on 05 October 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

Thirding (lol) the discussion idea. I'd love to join in and chip in. I do hope like Azukara or the team looks at what the designer has to offer before adding them to the discussion however. If they're offering something way off from what this game is going for, chaos is ensured. I'm sure Azukara and the team would know what they're doing.

From what we've seen so far, there are a few of you guys perfect for some good discussion on it. Azu will probably come to who ever's interested with contact details to join our Skype group. Hope that sounds groovy with you guys.