[flarn2006]

Is there any evidence that Big the Cat was originally going to go to Lost World in Sonic Adventure? I wouldn't be surprised if he was.

For one thing, it's the only stage with a large pool of water that Big doesn't go to. Also, I've always found it odd that Big's "house", where his opening cutscene takes place, is in the Mystic Ruins jungle, but his game begins in Station Square. Lost World would likely have been his first level, as it's practically right next to his house, and looks like exactly the kind of place Froggy would run off to. I can certainly see Big blindly chasing Froggy in there, not paying any attention to the dangers within. One more thing: you may not have noticed this, but every stage is visited by exactly three characters—except for one. Lost World is only visited by Sonic and Knuckles.

I can think of a couple reasons why they would have removed this. The first one might be obvious: that pool is huge. Finding Froggy, let alone actually catching him, would be a nightmare. Another thing is that it could have been too hard to make fishing from a moving platform (the snake) work, especially if you have something hooked. They could have removed the snake from Big's version, but it would be hard to justify why it was there for Sonic. Also, the pool acts as a bottomless pit. When you reach the bottom, you die. Even if you didn't, there's no way back up, so you'd drown anyway, similar to the infamous spike pit in Mystic Cave Zone. Sure, there's the Life Belt, but if this was indeed supposed to be Big's first level, it wouldn't make sense for it to be an upgrade, since you'd need it as soon as you start playing. One more thing: even four levels is a lot for Big. Maybe the developers realized that—thank goodness it's not five.

So what does everyone else think? How likely do you think this is?

This post has been edited by flarn2006: 03 January 2013 - 05:41 AM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I had never thought about that or even realised the progression of the levels in that way either, but it's definitely a compelling theory.

When Froggy hops away in the cutscene from Bigs House, what direction does he take? I would image that if this was a last minute thing (which it could be, as they could change the bottomless water pit easily, as well as change the snake or move it slightly), then they may not have bothered changing the cutscene to reflect this change to another location either.

[flarn2006]

It's kind of hard to tell what direction, but here's a video of that part of the cutscene.
Also after watching that again it certainly seems like you'd take control of Big right where he is. Having it suddenly load Station Square right there is just odd. It would make a lot of sense for you to start playing Big's story at his house.

[BlackHole]

From the map on the wiki, it looks like he could be bouncing off to either location. So make of that what you will (though, admittedly, it looks slightly more angled for Lost World).

I don't see how they couldn't have justified the snake's absence for Big, though. They could've just had it so he and Sonic come in through different entrances, one of which triggers the snake, the other of which doesn't. Simple.

This post has been edited by BlackHole: 03 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

[Jen]

That's a really interesting theory, I'd never thought about it before but it makes perfect sense. It had always bugged me that Big's story jumps straight to Station Square after Mystic Ruins.

It makes me wonder just how long Big's game was originally going to be. We already know, of course, that he was originally going to be in Windy Valley as well. In the Windy Valley shots he has Froggy following alongside him, which has always made me think that, originally, Big's game may not just have been about fishing; perhaps some of the levels were going to have more of a focus on platforming or something as well (if that's the case, oh god why did they change it? D: ). Ice Cap is another Big level that comes to mind to support this idea, with its various little platforming sections dotted through it, some of which are quite out of the way and don't really lead anywhere IIRC.

[flarn2006]

Jen, on 03 January 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

That's a really interesting theory, I'd never thought about it before but it makes perfect sense. It had always bugged me that Big's story jumps straight to Station Square after Mystic Ruins.

It makes me wonder just how long Big's game was originally going to be. We already know, of course, that he was originally going to be in Windy Valley as well. In the Windy Valley shots he has Froggy following alongside him, which has always made me think that, originally, Big's game may not just have been about fishing; perhaps some of the levels were going to have more of a focus on platforming or something as well (if that's the case, oh god why did they change it? D: ). Ice Cap is another Big level that comes to mind to support this idea, with its various little platforming sections dotted through it, some of which are quite out of the way and don't really lead anywhere IIRC.

You could kind of say the same thing about his version of Hot Shelter. There's a huge hidden area basically on the roof of most of the level, inside of what looks like a huge, otherwise empty room.

This post has been edited by flarn2006: 03 January 2013 - 08:29 PM

[OKei]

flarn2006, on 03 January 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

Jen, on 03 January 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

That's a really interesting theory, I'd never thought about it before but it makes perfect sense. It had always bugged me that Big's story jumps straight to Station Square after Mystic Ruins.

It makes me wonder just how long Big's game was originally going to be. We already know, of course, that he was originally going to be in Windy Valley as well. In the Windy Valley shots he has Froggy following alongside him, which has always made me think that, originally, Big's game may not just have been about fishing; perhaps some of the levels were going to have more of a focus on platforming or something as well (if that's the case, oh god why did they change it? D: ). Ice Cap is another Big level that comes to mind to support this idea, with its various little platforming sections dotted through it, some of which are quite out of the way and don't really lead anywhere IIRC.

You could kind of say the same thing about his version of Hot Shelter. There's a huge hidden area basically on the roof of most of the level, inside of what looks like a huge, otherwise empty room.

I always wondered why there was more areas in the levels to explore in as Big than the game led you to believe. The deeper I read into this thread, the more I think that Big's gameplay was to have more content and variety in it.

[TheKazeblade]

As someone who never was bothered by Big's inclusion in SA (Seriously, once you figured out the trick to setting the hook, he has the shortest stages of any character), I would have definitely thought that Big going to Lost World would make sense. Also, it would have made for a really humorous situation. There he would be, the most brain dead of any of the characters, and he's in arguably the most important location in the game, but with no way of understanding the ramifications.

Plus, why would Chaos be there in the first place? The timeline placement would put the events of the beginning of Big's story directly after being freed from the Master Emerald. From what the story shows, Eggman doesn't have a way of detecting the Emeralds, hence why he simply steals them from Sonic. With how isolated Big is, how would anyone know he had a Chaos Emerald? Perhaps Chaos went there after being released due to that being the original location of his shrine? Once he possessed Froggy, it would make sense why he would go in that direction. Oh well, just pure speculation. Is there any in-game or in-code evidence that any of this could have been possible?

EDIT: Not to mention, there was no reason for Robotnik and Chaos to be in Station Square at the beginning of Sonic's story. They didn't retrieve any Emeralds while they were there, and just headed right back to the Mystic Ruins afterwards.

What if they were following Big, who was chasing Froggy from the Mystic Ruins? By following Big, Robotnik would know where to deploy E-102, who then retrieved him. I don't know, that might lend credence to all of this.

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 03 January 2013 - 09:10 PM

[flarn2006]

I think technically E-102 would qualify as the most "brain-dead".

Another idea might be that Big originally wasn't going to go to Twinkle Park, but would go to Lost World instead. This is less likely however, as then Twinkle Park would only be visited by two characters. But unlike in Big's other levels, that pool in Twinkle Park does seem like it was placed there at the last minute specifically for Big to fish in.

"Alright, so Lost World presents too many technical problems for fishing...what other stage could we realistically put water in?"
"Well, amusement parks sometimes have pools...then again, Twinkle Park..."
"--that's it! We'll put a swimming pool in Twinkle Park. Problem solved!"
"...isn't really a water park......"

This would also explain why Twinkle Park doesn't have any hidden areas for Big to find like all his other levels do. I don't know of any other parts of Lost World with water (other than that shallow fountain-like area right before the snake part) though I'm sure they could have found somewhere hidden. It's an ancient temple after all, something that seemingly always contains some kind of secret chamber. And if you play through Big's other levels as Sonic (or Amy in Hot Shelter, since she visits Big's area) you wouldn't even know those areas exist. Especially not in Emerald Coast, as Sonic doesn't even load the same map as Big.

Though, again, Twinkle Park would then only be visited by Sonic and Amy...

This post has been edited by flarn2006: 04 January 2013 - 01:28 AM

[Mykonos]

TheKazeblade, on 03 January 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

EDIT: Not to mention, there was no reason for Robotnik and Chaos to be in Station Square at the beginning of Sonic's story. They didn't retrieve any Emeralds while they were there, and just headed right back to the Mystic Ruins afterwards.

If anything, I see it as less "Get dem Emeralds" and more "Let's go scare the future denizens of Robotnikland". I guess if one doesn't want to look at it as Eggman just having a bit of fun with his new toy, he could just be scouting out for an Emerald, then the cops came upon a walking liquid monster which caused him to retreat for a bit. The more I think about it the harder it is to genuinely explain other than "lol plot".

[flarn2006]

Here's another thing I just realized. Ever noticed that in almost all the Action Stages visited by three characters (I.e. all but Lost World), there's a certain pattern with what areas they visit? One character visits one section, another character visits one section, and another character (usually Sonic) visits both sections, plus possibly a third? There are only a few exceptions.

• Emerald Coast - Does not follow this pattern.
  
• Windy Valley - E-102 goes to Windy and Ripply, Tails goes to In the Air, and Sonic goes to both + the short tornado section.
  
• Casinopolis - Knuckles goes to the main hub section, Tails goes to Dilapidated Way, and Sonic can go to both + the pinball tables.
  
• Icecap - Big goes to Limestone Cave, Tails has the snowboarding section, and Sonic has both + Snowy Mountain (which always ends before you hear the best part of the music! )
  
• Twinkle Park - Does not follow this pattern.
  
• Speed Highway - Tails goes to the main part that was in Generations (Sonic's first part), Knuckles goes to At Dawn, and Sonic goes to both + Goin' Down.
  
• Red Mountain - Knuckles goes to the above-ground part, E-102 goes to the underground part, and Sonic goes to both. (Knuckles' section is actually a different map, but it's obviously supposed to be in the same area where Sonic's level is.)
  
• Sky Deck - Tails goes to Sonic's first part (don't know what else to call it), Knuckles goes to Sonic's last part, and Sonic (obviously) goes to both of those + that middle part with all the planes taking off.
  
• Lost World - Knuckles goes to Leading Lights (which is supposed to be part of Tricky Maze), Big would likely go to the part with the snake, and Sonic goes to both (again, counting Leading Lights as part of Tricky Maze.)
  
• Final Egg - Amy goes to Sonic's first part (again, don't know what else to call it), E-102 goes to Sonic's last part (though only a small section at very end of it, going backwards), and Sonic (again, obviously) goes to both + his second section
  
• Hot Shelter - Big goes to the part with all the water (obviously), E-102 goes to the part with the gears (though he takes a different path than Amy), and Amy goes to both.

Notice the part highlighted in yellow.

This post has been edited by flarn2006: 05 January 2013 - 02:26 AM

[Twinbee MkII]

I'd need to play the stage again to be certain, but in Sonic's Lost World, after the mirror lighting, and right before the boulder chase, isn't there a quick run by of an area filled with water after Sonic goes sliding down a waterfall? Maybe that could be something? Just a thought.

This post has been edited by Twinbee MkII: 05 January 2013 - 07:14 AM

[Sun]

I always felt that Lost World was visited by only Sonic and Knuckles because they are the most connected to the emeralds, and are most involved against Chaos.

It's not impossible that Big could have gone there, though ST probably didn't view Big as being too important compared to everyone else to bother.

[E-122-Psi]

I did have slight theories that he might have been meant to go there, albeit largely just to the basic 'it's a water level' and 'Big's missing at least one level' points.

There are actually two bits of water for him to go into, the snake area and the small pool at the end of the waterfall in 'Leading Lights'.

It's possible it could have been a later level that he just backtracked to (he goes back to Mystic Ruins for Icecap and Froggy supposedly enters the forest area again for Tails' Sand Hill minigame, Big in that level? :P). The snake area may have been easy to remedy, there are loads of platforms so the snake itself would likely just be neccessary for unleashing the water, while the bottomless pit is moot point since Emerald Coast had them and was fixed for Big's version.

Seeing Big in Sky Chase as a final minigame would have been cooler though. How could they have neglected that?

Slight off topic, I also wondered if Amy was meant to go in other levels (Casinopolis being the most obvious choice since she enters that area for little other reason than to activate a cutscene) though they were cut due to time constaints or breaking the 'three characters per level' pattern.

This post has been edited by E-122-Psi: 05 January 2013 - 10:24 AM

[TSMD]

Twinbee MkII, on 05 January 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

I'd need to play the stage again to be certain, but in Sonic's Lost World, after the mirror lighting, and right before the boulder chase, isn't there a quick run by of an area filled with water after Sonic goes sliding down a waterfall? Maybe that could be something? Just a thought.

The mirror lighting section also has water, it could be possible they were planning on using that section for big fishing. Hacking Big into that section and fishing there works almost perfectly, and the mirror lighting would add a cool gimmick. They could easily of added a new map, that was similar to that section (Like they did for Emerald Coast) for Big to fish in.