[W.A.C.]

LordOfSquad, on 11 September 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

Does he even post around here?

For all we know, he might not even know this thread exists.

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 11 September 2014 - 04:35 PM

[BlazeHedgehog]

Endri, on 10 September 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Falk, on 10 September 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

But Endri was offering to tweak within MMF2, or am I misreading?

You are correct.

Hmmm. My mistake, then.

[.Luke]

I had no idea this was still in the works, let alone that Sonic Nexus got merged in too. (A real shame to me, I loved seeing Taxman's Sonic engine being used by another team.) Hope the new heads of development can see their vision through, fan game work is pretty tough. I'm amazed fan games like SRB2 are still going after all these years that the co-creators left the project.

Endri, on 10 September 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Falk, on 10 September 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

But Endri was offering to tweak within MMF2, or am I misreading?

You are correct. Although I'd be so tempted to move it to something better and portable, because I find it hard to believe that some of the things that want to improve in this game are even possible within MMF2 alone.

I'd hate to see this game fall victim to any of the things that 99% of the fan games do (or don't, thereof), which includes, among many things, lack of proper audio management (or any audio management at all), lack of a "technology-pushing" Special Stage (because the game making suit doesn't allow, or because the creator simply doesn't know how to implement their idea), use of a "Power Sneakers" track out of sheer convenience, because the creator don't know how to rise the tempo without also raising the pitch of the music, innacurate Tails AI, awful physics.

That being said, I'm almost certain that the current Special Stage in XG is probably some 2D shit and probably sucks (not really suck, what I mean is that it probably isn't as good as it could be, if you know what I mean).

If I had finished my Sonic engine in Game Maker, it already had lots of ways of managing audio with the SuperSound library. I think most fan game developers simply don't notice the little things, like how the ring sound effects pan from left to right with each one you grab, so the sound department doesn't get much needed attention. There's really no excuse not to when third-party libraries give you so many options.

As for special stages, I've wanted something new and fresh as well. I was going to do a massive labyrinth in 2D with Super Forms and puzzles for my idea, but never got far enough into development to work on that. There are lots of ideas for special stages, but not everybody gets a chance to make them happen, sadly. And, as you said, limitations in skill play a part too.

[Hez]

.Luke, on 11 September 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

I had no idea this was still in the works, let alone that Sonic Nexus got merged in too. /> (A real shame to me, I loved seeing Taxman's Sonic engine being used by another team.) Hope the new heads of development can see their vision through, fan game work is pretty tough. I'm amazed fan games like SRB2 are still going after all these years that the co-creators left the project.

Endri, on 10 September 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Falk, on 10 September 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

But Endri was offering to tweak within MMF2, or am I misreading?

You are correct. Although I'd be so tempted to move it to something better and portable, because I find it hard to believe that some of the things that want to improve in this game are even possible within MMF2 alone.

I'd hate to see this game fall victim to any of the things that 99% of the fan games do (or don't, thereof), which includes, among many things, lack of proper audio management (or any audio management at all), lack of a "technology-pushing" Special Stage (because the game making suit doesn't allow, or because the creator simply doesn't know how to implement their idea), use of a "Power Sneakers" track out of sheer convenience, because the creator don't know how to rise the tempo without also raising the pitch of the music, innacurate Tails AI, awful physics.

That being said, I'm almost certain that the current Special Stage in XG is probably some 2D shit and probably sucks (not really suck, what I mean is that it probably isn't as good as it could be, if you know what I mean).

If I had finished my Sonic engine in Game Maker, it already had lots of ways of managing audio with the SuperSound library. I think most fan game developers simply don't notice the little things, like how the ring sound effects pan from left to right with each one you grab, so the sound department doesn't get much needed attention. There's really no excuse not to when third-party libraries give you so many options.

As for special stages, I've wanted something new and fresh as well. I was going to do a massive labyrinth in 2D with Super Forms and puzzles for my idea, but never got far enough into development to work on that. There are lots of ideas for special stages, but not everybody gets a chance to make them happen, sadly. And, as you said, limitations in skill play a part too.

I fail to understand why everyone is acting like sound management is related to the platform its being developed on. This has nothing to do with that. It all has to do with the attention to detail the developer spends on their game. Am I well aware that the ring sound pans from left to right? Yup! Or even more little details like a 100, 1000, and 10000 comes up after destroying enemies, or hitting a bumper? Yup!

I feel like everything everyone is bitching about they are trying to blame on the platform, when it just boils down to the developer and their attention to detail. Everything mentioned is fully capable in GameMaker, MMF, or whatever the hell you use.

[Lambda]

Hez, on 12 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

.Luke, on 11 September 2014 - 08:22 PM, said:

I had no idea this was still in the works, let alone that Sonic Nexus got merged in too. />/>/> (A real shame to me, I loved seeing Taxman's Sonic engine being used by another team.) Hope the new heads of development can see their vision through, fan game work is pretty tough. I'm amazed fan games like SRB2 are still going after all these years that the co-creators left the project.

Endri, on 10 September 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

Falk, on 10 September 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

But Endri was offering to tweak within MMF2, or am I misreading?

You are correct. Although I'd be so tempted to move it to something better and portable, because I find it hard to believe that some of the things that want to improve in this game are even possible within MMF2 alone.

I'd hate to see this game fall victim to any of the things that 99% of the fan games do (or don't, thereof), which includes, among many things, lack of proper audio management (or any audio management at all), lack of a "technology-pushing" Special Stage (because the game making suit doesn't allow, or because the creator simply doesn't know how to implement their idea), use of a "Power Sneakers" track out of sheer convenience, because the creator don't know how to rise the tempo without also raising the pitch of the music, innacurate Tails AI, awful physics.

That being said, I'm almost certain that the current Special Stage in XG is probably some 2D shit and probably sucks (not really suck, what I mean is that it probably isn't as good as it could be, if you know what I mean).

If I had finished my Sonic engine in Game Maker, it already had lots of ways of managing audio with the SuperSound library. I think most fan game developers simply don't notice the little things, like how the ring sound effects pan from left to right with each one you grab, so the sound department doesn't get much needed attention. There's really no excuse not to when third-party libraries give you so many options.

As for special stages, I've wanted something new and fresh as well. I was going to do a massive labyrinth in 2D with Super Forms and puzzles for my idea, but never got far enough into development to work on that. There are lots of ideas for special stages, but not everybody gets a chance to make them happen, sadly. And, as you said, limitations in skill play a part too.

I fail to understand why everyone is acting like sound management is related to the platform its being developed on. This has nothing to do with that. It all has to do with the attention to detail the developer spends on their game. Am I well aware that the ring sound pans from left to right? Yup! Or even more little details like a 100, 1000, and 10000 comes up after destroying enemies, or hitting a bumper? Yup!

I feel like everything everyone is bitching about they are trying to blame on the platform, when it just boils down to the developer and their attention to detail. Everything mentioned is fully capable in GameMaker, MMF, or whatever the hell you use.

Lots of people hate on these platofrms because they've never used them, and they want to build everything themselves instead of using an existing environment. Honestly, if Game Maker or MMF can make a game that runs well and produce a final product that meets the developer's specs, then anyone starting from dirt is wasting time... but that's my opinion, I guess.

This post has been edited by Lambda: 12 September 2014 - 01:12 PM

[winterhell]

Lambda, on 12 September 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Lots of people hate on these platofrms because they've never used them, and they want to build everything themselves instead of using an existing environment. Honestly, if Game Maker or MMF can make a game that runs well and produce a final product that meets the developer's specs, then anyone starting from dirt is wasting time... but that's my opinion, I guess.

Requiring a Core 2 Duo CPU for a 2D 320x240 single player Sonic to run smoothly is not ideal for many people. Can you even write code in MMF2 ? Everything was 1 file blob, and the programming was only mouse clicking. You only need a keypad to enter numbers.
There is always something about a given platform that cannot be achieved reasonably(like writing a software rasterizer for a 2D game making engine). Even UDK or Unity's Sonic engines suffer due to inherent limitations.

[Hez]

winterhell, on 12 September 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

Lambda, on 12 September 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

Lots of people hate on these platofrms because they've never used them, and they want to build everything themselves instead of using an existing environment. Honestly, if Game Maker or MMF can make a game that runs well and produce a final product that meets the developer's specs, then anyone starting from dirt is wasting time... but that's my opinion, I guess.

Requiring a Core 2 Duo CPU for a 2D 320x240 single player Sonic to run smoothly is not ideal for many people. Can you even write code in MMF2 ? Everything was 1 file blob, and the programming was only mouse clicking. You only need a keypad to enter numbers.
There is always something about a given platform that cannot be achieved reasonably(like writing a software rasterizer for a 2D game making engine). Even UDK or Unity's Sonic engines suffer due to inherent limitations.

Who doesn't have a Core 2 CPU anymore?

[Endri]

Having a solid hardware standard is not an excuse to implement softwares lazily! I still remember that the first version of Sonic Classic run with unstable framerates on a i7 starting from the second level. (I'm saying that it's Game Maker's fault, not yours, by the way, in case you may be thinking anything).

About this tool set debate, I'll say this: the best tool for the job is the one you are most confortable with, and as a result, the one you can take most advantage of. There is no right or wrong; if you can achieve your goals with it and you are confident with it, that's the right tool. In fact, this is the analysis that Software Architects must perform when deciding which tools the team must use in order to meet the system requirements; ease of use and high abstraction are overvalued in most cases, and are use whenever possible.

About the Rings doppler effect, this is the least of the problems! When I say "audio management", I'm really talking about actual audio management. An example is when multiple sound effects are played simultaneously, their waves are added to each other and causes the much irritating clipping. Even Sonic 4 doesn't have proper audio management!

(Hint: grab many Rings or hit a spring in rapid sucession for awful results.)

(Bonus: Sonic Boom doesn't use the Ring doppler effect! It only uses a mono Ring sound effect that sounds like it was ripped from the Gens emulator with audio quality set to 22050Hz.)

This post has been edited by Endri: 12 September 2014 - 07:18 PM

[Socknic]

I'm really looking forward to this release. While I'm not trying to get my hopes up too much, in case the game ends up being underwhelming, it continues to look brilliant. Though I'm normally not one to say things like "This is the true Sonic 4", I actually feel like Sonic XG has the potential to achieve classic status. Also, in case you guys didn't spot this in the fourth trailer, there's a new zone. Upon asking about it, Nitemare responded saying that it was Hydro Haven, one of the levels cut in early development. It seems that it will take the place of Golden Gate Zone, which Nitemare deemed bland compared to the other zones.

[Falk]

Endri, on 12 September 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Having a solid hardware standard is not an excuse to implement softwares lazily! /> I still remember that the first version of Sonic Classic run with unstable framerates on a i7 starting from the second level. /> (I'm saying that it's Game Maker's fault, not yours, by the way, in case you may be thinking anything).

About this tool set debate, I'll say this: the best tool for the job is the one you are most confortable with, and as a result, the one you can take most advantage of. There is no right or wrong; if you can achieve your goals with it and you are confident with it, that's the right tool. In fact, this is the analysis that Software Architects must perform when deciding which tools the team must use in order to meet the system requirements; ease of use and high abstraction are overvalued in most cases, and are use whenever possible.

About the Rings doppler effect, this is the least of the problems! When I say "audio management", I'm really talking about actual audio management. An example is when multiple sound effects are played simultaneously, their waves are added to each other and causes the much irritating clipping. Even Sonic 4 doesn't have proper audio management! />

(Hint: grab many Rings or hit a spring in rapid sucession for awful results.)

(Bonus: Sonic Boom doesn't use the Ring doppler effect! It only uses a mono Ring sound effect that sounds like it was ripped from the Gens emulator with audio quality set to 22050Hz.)

I don't think doppler means what you think it means.

[Retroman]

Do you want any team members to help you out? I can assist with creating music. I don't mind what's your decision. I love Sonic XG

This post has been edited by Retroman: 14 September 2014 - 05:34 AM

[Socknic]

Retroman, on 14 September 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

Do you want any team members to help you out? I can assist with creating music. I don't mind what's your decision. I love Sonic XG

Taxman doesn't work on the game anymore. You'll have to contact Nitemare on his Youtube channel (Joe Waters) and ask him. It would be nice to get some new music for XG. Though the selected tracks are pretty nice, it's too bad that it doesn't have a great custom track like some other fangames.

[DalekSam]

Falk, on 14 September 2014 - 02:04 AM, said:

Endri, on 12 September 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

About the Rings doppler effect, this is the least of the problems! When I say "audio management", I'm really talking about actual audio management. An example is when multiple sound effects are played simultaneously, their waves are added to each other and causes the much irritating clipping. Even Sonic 4 doesn't have proper audio management! :v

(Bonus: Sonic Boom doesn't use the Ring doppler effect! It only uses a mono Ring sound effect that sounds like it was ripped from the Gens emulator with audio quality set to 22050Hz.)

I don't think doppler means what you think it means.

Indeed. The doppler effect refers to the relative distance of something changing the heard pitch of its sound as it gets closer or further away. Best example? Screaming engines of race cars from cameras across track. Look up info online; the doppler effect is rather interesting.

I am also aware this post is probably sarcastic and my post is probably wholly unneeded

The rings use basic stereo channel alternation. Granted, you're still right about what you meant, but doppler is the wrong word.

[Falk]

Most fan games and engines I'm aware of also stop/restart SFX when played consecutively. That's why you only repeatedly hear the first of the three notes in the ring ditty when you go through a bunch of rings.

[.Luke]

Hez, on 12 September 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

I fail to understand why everyone is acting like sound management is related to the platform its being developed on. This has nothing to do with that. It all has to do with the attention to detail the developer spends on their game. Am I well aware that the ring sound pans from left to right? Yup! Or even more little details like a 100, 1000, and 10000 comes up after destroying enemies, or hitting a bumper? Yup!I feel like everything everyone is bitching about they are trying to blame on the platform, when it just boils down to the developer and their attention to detail. Everything mentioned is fully capable in GameMaker, MMF, or whatever the hell you use.

Attention to detail is exactly what I was talking about, not playing programming language favorites. How'd you get that idea from what I said?

Endri, on 12 September 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Having a solid hardware standard is not an excuse to implement softwares lazily! /> I still remember that the first version of Sonic Classic run with unstable framerates on a i7 starting from the second level. (I'm saying that it's Game Maker's fault, not yours, by the way, in case you may be thinking anything).About this tool set debate, I'll say this: the best tool for the job is the one you are most confortable with, and as a result, the one you can take most advantage of. There is no right or wrong; if you can achieve your goals with it and you are confident with it, that's the right tool. In fact, this is the analysis that Software Architects must perform when deciding which tools the team must use in order to meet the system requirements; ease of use and high abstraction are overvalued in most cases, and are use whenever possible.

It definitely doesn't excuse laziness. I did the best I could to make sure my little Shantae engine ran efficiently with Game Maker, even if it uses more memory than I'd like. I'd love to switch to tile-based collisions if I can, for even more speed and fewer objects on-screen.

Your other point is quite true. What you're most comfortable with sometimes wins over using something else. It would be ironically inefficient to dump GML for C++, if I was the sloppiest coder on the planet.

Endri, on 12 September 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

About the Rings doppler effect, this is the least of the problems! When I say "audio management", I'm really talking about actual audio management. An example is when multiple sound effects are played simultaneously, their waves are added to each other and causes the much irritating clipping. Even Sonic 4 doesn't have proper audio management! (Hint: grab many Rings or hit a spring in rapid sucession for awful results.)(Bonus: Sonic Boom doesn't use the Ring doppler effect! It only uses a mono Ring sound effect that sounds like it was ripped from the Gens emulator with audio quality set to 22050Hz.)

So you were referring to overlap? Ah, yeah, managing things beyond dumping them all on the sound channel makes sense; it can be fairly grating. That's much more clear.