[Pengi]

The Growler, on 31 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

I think this again shows how good Fleetway's STC explains all this; Sonic collected his set in the Special Zone [which had its own back story], and Knuckles had his set - to which there were once only 1 lot of Chaos Emeralds, to which Robotnik merged them together etc. etc.

I don't know where the Master Emerald came into it though.

The green Chaos Emerald became the Master Emerald in STC. It was one of the 7, not an additional 8th like in the games.

[Overlord]

The Growler, on 31 March 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

I think this again shows how good Fleetway's STC explains all this; Sonic collected his set in the Special Zone [which had its own back story], and Knuckles had his set - to which there were once only 1 lot of Chaos Emeralds, to which Robotnik merged them together etc. etc.

Pimping my series: http://www.sonicretr...s-and-echidnas/

(Yes, the S3&K conclusion is coming eventually. =P Was planning to do it over Easter (because lol Death Egg) but didn't pan out)

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I'm not sure why people find it hard to follow, but it's pretty obvious what happens. Robotnik isn't aware of the Master Emerald until Sonic and Knuckles as he doesn't go after it in Sonic 3. He forms an alliance with Knuckles prior to the game and tricks Knuckles in to believing that Sonic is coming to invade and steal whatever treasures Knuckles has. Knuckles takes Sonic's existing emeralds which originated from Angel Island in ancient times and he hides them in the special stages.

Knuckles also isn't just bound to protect the Master Emerald, but oversees the entire island. He doesn't need to be within seeing distance of the Master Emerald to do this. As a bonus, he can shrink it and take it around with him if need be, as seen in SA2.

[dsrb]

None of that explains why HPZ had the Master Emerald and empty holders for 7 Chaos/proto-Super Emeralds. Should we assume that the second set of Emeralds collected in the S&K-based half of S3&K are a different set, and that the two sets were merged to create the super Emeralds? I see that the comic apparently did something like this, but for obvious reasons, I'm not assuming that to be guaranteed representative of the games and their writers' original intentions.

Also, say the upcoming remake of StH2 does feature HPZ, about which I'm still 100% sceptical, how would that make sense when HPZ was moved to the Floating Island? Gah, this is why canon is always a bad thing.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

It seems that because the Chaos Emeralds came from Angel Island that where the Master Emerald lay was where they came from in the Hidden Palace and when all set together thier size grew due to the close proximity to the Master Emerald. A major plot point of SA2 is the ME's ability to affect the power of the Chaos Emeralds, and in Adventure the emeralds are larger in the shrine with the ME too.

I always assumed in S&K you just unlock the normal emeralds secret powers and grow them in to the Super Emeralds.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 01 April 2013 - 10:02 AM

[Donnyku]

as for the knuckles leaving the island thing, I always just went with the idea of after Adventure, the Island never left the ground after Chaos and Tikal left the Master Emerald, and as such, Knuckles doesn't need to protect the Island the same way he used to, and so can just take the Emerald with him. At least as long as my memory is not failing me.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I can see why you don't remember it though, there's a lot of cutscenes in this game.

[TheKazeblade]

SpeedStarTMQ, on 04 April 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

I can see why you don't remember it though, there's a lot of cutscenes in this game.

That's only at the end of Knuckles' story. However, we never see it leave the ground again after it crashes the second time in the Super Sonic story. I always assumed it did, since what Knuckles said indicated the island's second fall may have to do something with the Emeralds being back in close proximity with each other, but once Chaos grabbed the Emeralds and took them off the island again, the island remained grounded, so... the island being back in the sky is ambiguous at best, unless we count Sonic Advance as canon.

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 04 April 2013 - 02:50 AM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I think the premise alone is enough to confirm that Angel Island floated back up to the sky again. It only fell due to the events in the game, and Super Sonic stopped Chaos, so by the logic the game presents, Angel Island has nothing stopping it floating again, and I guess they assumed they didn't need to show it flying back up again with an identical cutscene, as we're meant to draw that conclusion ourselves as part of the games ending. Adventure 2 also showed Knuckles initial cutscene being high in the sky based on the surrounding view. Angel Island being in the sky is part of Knuckles backstory- if it's not in the sky there's trouble, as it was raised to make the power of the Chaos and Master Emerald unreachable by man/echidna etc.

I also see no reason why Sonic Advance 1, 2 and 3 etc. can't be canon. Back in the day the GameGear games weren't canon because they literally ignored the events of the Mega Drive games and changed major plot points, but since the series unified under one umbrella and style, every game (excluding the mini games like Pinball or Shuffle) seem to have an effect on the main storyline, such as Cream being introduced. Also they link to the main series games like DX and 2 Battle on the Gamecube for extra content, which in itself isn't a hard reason, but does show the connection between the side stories and main games.

The days of non-canon are over. Even Chronicles seem to be, but whether they end up retconning it out of existence in future is another matter, as they certainly haven't bothered with a sequel.

All they really need to do is create a game like Sonic Unleashed where in the opening they're fighting Eggman from the end of Chronicles and they can totally ignore having to make a true sequel.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Sorry, I can't edit my previous psot on this work computer.

Having just posted my previous one, after a bit of thought, I suppose there's actually evidence for and against Angel Island being back in the sky, as Sonic Battle calls it the "Holy Summit" and it's seemingly connected to the land...

Sonic Advance 3 also comes after this, but it's then entirely possible that it's just very high in the sky, but not actually levitating above ground- like a very high mountain.

But then, that begs the question- why does Angel Island Float without the Chaos Emeralds after Sonic 3 & K when Sonic has them?

Just another potential plothole that could be explained if SEGA weren't so vague.

[Tanicius]

Samurai Echidna, on 28 March 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

If the scale of the danger at large is too big too ignore (as in, the entire planet or all life could be at risk), then Knuckles might leave his duties to pursue the bigger threat at hand.

While the "greater good" argument has sense, and was even used in the Archie continuity as memory serves, a problem arises in the simple fact he either has to leave the Emerald unguarded or take it with him, thus causing the Island to fall. I'm confident Knuckles is well aware of the fact the Master Emerald needs protection for a reason: it has such immense power and capabilities that it can't be allowed to fall into the wrong hands. So it's reasonable to assume he'd have some sort of backup plan to keep it secure whenever he ventures down below... the problem is Sonic Team's never elaborated.

Quote

3. If the Master Emerald is not in threat of being stolen again, then maybe Knuckles can afford to step away for a while. After trying to many times, I don't think Eggman cares about the Master Emerald anymore; especially considering how much messing with it backfired in Sonic Adventure. Eggman trying to steal it again in Sonic Adventure 2 just seems forced, but he probably did it for insurance against things like Shadow and Bio Lizard/Final Hazard rather than his usual reasons for stealing it.

Based on the dialogue in Sonic Adventure 2, it sounded like Eggman was expecting a Chaos Emerald, but found the Master Emerald instead. He more or less seemed to just shrug about the situation and figured he may as well take it while he was there. So it was spur of the moment; as such, we can conclude Eggman has indeed given up on stealing the gem based on the main titles.

Which I find incredibly surprising since Knuckles is down on Earth half the time anyway so it's strange a man of his genius hasn't dispatched some sort of small task force to "borrow" it while Red is busy elsewhere. Then again Eggman does forget the minor details sometimes...

The Game Collector, on 28 March 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Isn't that pretty much exactly what happened in Sonic & Knuckles? Knuckles is off setting up booby traps for Sonic and while they are distracted and fighting Robotnik finally finds the entrance to the Hidden Palace and steals the Master Emerald before the final levels.

Hmm, somewhat, but I meant a more comprehensive trap system. Knuckles' system was horribly flawed since he had to be present to trigger each one; my concept of effective traps would allow him to leave the island, whereas whoever stepped within so much as a hundred yards of the Master Emerald would find some bad fate or another awaiting them. His trap system in Sonic 3 was very crude and ineffective as it necessitated he be there to activate it manually.

Clutch, on 29 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Yeah, the Master Emerald mass-shifts in Sonic Adventure 2's Last Story, so it looks like he literally pulls it out of his ass. Whether that's a presentation choice or an actual ability of his I'll leave to fanwankery.

I think it's safe to say he can most definitely carry it around with him (he has a reputation as the strongest, even), though the actual size shifting likely is just presentation. It looks less awkward if he pulls out a medium-sized gem versus one that's gigantic.

Quote

He's also got his innate ability to track it down as seen with the radar he's had every single other time it gets shattered into pieces, so I assume even if some low-level crook archeologist tried to sell it on the black market he'd just be able to track the thing down and pummel the responsible party anyway.

His (apparently) psychic link with the Emerald definitely has its uses, as he'll know if/when the Emerald is in danger (as he did in Sonic 3&K) from afar. My main problem is that even if he carries the Emerald with him to keep it safe, logically that means Angel Island falls into the ocean. From what we've established, this is an undesirable outcome, so it leaves us with a bit of a problem: Knuckles can't simultaneously have the emerald on his person and keep Angel Island safe in the heavens.

SpeedStarTMQ, on 01 April 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Knuckles also isn't just bound to protect the Master Emerald, but oversees the entire island. He doesn't need to be within seeing distance of the Master Emerald to do this. As a bonus, he can shrink it and take it around with him if need be, as seen in SA2.

That's where a problem arises though: how can he adequately protect it if he's halfway around the globe? The Emerald is safe of course, but if he's not on the island there's nothing to keep it safe. Unless he has some teleportation ability or has set up automated defenses/assistance on the island, there's nothing there.

Seems far too utilitarian for him to just write the island off on the basis of reclaiming it later, I'd think.