[Aerosol]

The only problem I have with boosting in Unleashed (and much more so in Generations) is that it's treated less like "Sonic running really fast" and more like "Sonic activating his GO FAST powers".

Example? How exactly do you boost down a water slide (Chemical Plant Zone)? How do you boost on a errant hook floating in the sky? (same level)? How is running directly into something a good idea? Does that magical blue aura around you deflect shit or something?

[RuRi]

I'd love for boosting to be some sorta "gain momentum much easier, become lighter and more agile" instead of "going full speed instantly".

And I dunno guys, he could just be saying he doesn't find Sonic games hard because of his experiance with games? my cousins find some of the newer Sonic games very hard, similar to how I foud the classics hard when I was younger. Infact, many games nowadays that I play don't feel as hard to me as back then, even when I play old games.

[TheInvisibleSun]

AerosolSP, on 18 May 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

The only problem I have with boosting in Unleashed (and much more so in Generations) is that it's treated less like "Sonic running really fast" and more like "Sonic activating his GO FAST powers".

Example? How exactly do you boost down a water slide (Chemical Plant Zone)? How do you boost on a errant hook floating in the sky? (same level)? How is running directly into something a good idea? Does that magical blue aura around you deflect shit or something?

This always bothered me as well. However, I've assumed for a while that the boost is a chaos ability Sonic naturally gained, like Chaos Control (which would explain why its funded by rings (or 'ring energy') like Super forms are. Sonic basically became able to do that "Lightning Dash" Super Sonic move from Sonic Adventure, in normal form. This would explain why Super Sonic now has unlimited Boost by the time of Colors. [/irrelevant]

This post has been edited by TheInvisibleSun: 18 May 2012 - 10:03 PM

[Aerosol]

An in-universe explanation is all well and good, but it's boring from a gameplay standpoint. It's like rolling every-goddamn-where in the classics. You knew you were basically indestructible as long as you had enough momentum to keep running. It was alright then, though, since you had to have some idea of what you were doing to roll around everywhere.

But putting enemies in your way just to let you boost through them is...dumb. It does nothing to enhance the sense of speed, since it's treated more like a "kill stuff and go fast" ability rather than a reward for player skill. Boosting's only saving grace is that clever use of it is intrinsic to getting great times.

[Metal Man88]

I'm more noting it as a "Pot calling the kettle black" situation—Yuji Naka complains about current games missing something, despite his own games (yes, including the Adventure games) being no better at addressing the basic holes that have existed since Sonic 3K was made and nothing came close to it ever again.

I will just as heartily reject the "It's 2012 now, let's forget anything from 6 years and older ago" notion as being no better than blaming it all on Yuji Naka. What he did remains there, as a testament to how he does not have the answer and regardless of what position he is in, cannot recapture the universal appeal his earlier works had.

He had his time to try, letting him at it again would do little to change the issues surrounding the drift away from what Sonic games used to be.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Yuji Naka might be right with regards to Sonic's difficulty level. Part of the reason I found Sonic Unleashed's daytime levels to be so memorable and replayable is because your first time through them was a harrowing, white-knuckle experience. You were constantly teetering on the edge of going way too fast, and I found that learning to parse and master those levels was a deeply rewarding experience.

Colors, and to a lesser extent Generations, weren't. Generations was fast, and full of plenty of spectacle, but Sonic Unleashed felt like you were constantly under pressure to repeatedly thread a needle for six minutes straight - and if you didn't, the penalty was probably death.

I wouldn't mind another Sonic game that was like that.

This post has been edited by BlazeHedgehog: 19 May 2012 - 02:12 AM

[Candescence]

Unleashed was hard as fuck, but it was for all the wrong reasons. The earlier stages were alright, but then the latter half of the game throws obstacles at you that you literally cannot avoid dying from without knowing they were there in advance, no matter if you were using the boost or not. And let's not get started on the QTEs. Eggmanland was the worst by far. The writing on the wall came when I realised that the designers were placing 1-Ups in easily-accessible locations right in front of incredibly difficult areas, especially right after checkpoints, because they could not be arsed to fix their blatantly broken level design. And Dark Gaia. Dear God, Dark Gaia SUCKED.

Say what you will about the Wii version of Unleashed, but at least it was fair. Even Eggmanland in that game was difficult, but not for the wrong reasons, as was Dark Gaia (hell, the very first phase of the fight was so much better than the HD version, and Perfect Dark Gaia wasn't just a QTE-fest). Colours and Unleashed toned down the fake difficulty considerably, thankfully. I don't mind difficult games, but Unleashed was where I drew the line, the fake difficulty was enough to turn me off the idea of replaying it ever again.

This post has been edited by Candescence: 19 May 2012 - 06:26 AM

[Hukos]

Candescence, on 19 May 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

Unleashed was hard as fuck, but it was for all the wrong reasons. The earlier stages were alright, but then the latter half of the game throws obstacles at you that you literally cannot avoid dying from without knowing they were there in advance, no matter if you were using the boost or not. And let's not get started on the QTEs. Eggmanland was the worst by far. The writing on the wall came when I realised that the designers were placing 1-Ups in easily-accessible locations right in front of incredibly difficult areas, especially right after checkpoints, because they could not be arsed to fix their blatantly broken level design. And Dark Gaia. Dear God, Dark Gaia SUCKED.

Say what you will about the Wii version of Unleashed, but at least it was fair. Even Eggmanland in that game was difficult, but not for the wrong reasons, as was Dark Gaia (hell, the very first phase of the fight was so much better than the HD version, and Perfect Dark Gaia wasn't just a QTE-fest). Colours and Unleashed toned down the fake difficulty considerably, thankfully. I don't mind difficult games, but Unleashed was where I drew the line, the fake difficulty was enough to turn me off the idea of replaying it ever again.

Is it bad that I don't think Eggmanland is hard at all? Then again this is someone who can kill Robotnik in the maze in Labyrinth Zone Act 3 without breaking a sweat so maybe I'm not one to talk about difficulty.

As a Castlevania fanboy, I thought Eggmanland was pretty simple in comparison to something like CV3's later levels (The section where the Gargoyles are floating up and down while you're walking through a room with staircases and Bone Dragons are constantly spitting fire at you. I HATE that room), but that just might be my inner Castlevania fanboy talking. But I still though Unleashed was pretty basic in regards to difficulty, but my background with really difficult games probably influences that opinion.

[Ravenfreak]

Gaining lives pretty quickly can make the game easy, since you'll have a shitload of lives to save you from getting a game over. And apparently, gaining lives in Sonic 4 is pretty easy. :\ In the classic games (excluding Sonic 1 rev.00) you'd need to get at least 50,000 points to get an extra life but dimps thinks you only need 10,000. Though the special stages in Ep. 2 are challenging especially the last one. >.> Though I can definitely see what Yuji Naka means. It'd be nice to see him working on a new Sonic game though. :3

[Dark Sonic]

^ That's Dimp's way of throwing in the old continue bonus from Sonic 2, but since continues no longer exist because they would do absolutely nothing, they give you a 1 up. Granted they could bump it up to 50,000 since getting about 50,000 points is pretty easy with the score tally, but since points don't roll over to other levels for some reason, it's almost impossible to get 50,000 points without the score tally (Casino Street Act 1 is an exception at the very least due to Super Sonic god slots).

Sonic games need to ditch lives. For some reason, Mario, Sonic, and Kirby are the only three game series I can think of that still hold on to the archaic concept of lives. They don't do anything at this point. "Oh no I lost my lives, I'll just go back to the title screen and restart." I mean, lets be honest, when was the last time anyone of us has gotten a game over in a modern Sonic game? Either the game is easy as piss or they hand out lives like candy. Honestly the only difference between losing a life and a game over is that a game over forces you to start from the beginning of the level where as losing a life means you start over from a check point. And either way you're still punished because the clock keeps ticking and you lose all your points. I really want to just see lives go away for good at this point. They mattered in Sonic 1 and 2, but even in Sonic 3 they didn't do anything. Game saves have rendered lives useless.

This post has been edited by Dark Sonic: 19 May 2012 - 09:59 PM

[muteKi]

I dunno, I was really frustrated at how Unleashed had few if any reliable methods for farming lives or maintaining life count in general.

Honestly, after spending 30 minutes on a stage I'm not at all pleased to get a game over due to making a misstep into a bottomless pit on a slower section with a bad camera angle. Hi Eggmanland. (Fuck, the fact I spent like 30 minutes in the stage in the first place gets my wrath enough.)

I mean, let's be honest here: Sonic 2 and 3K are piss-easy, at least if you have even a modicum of skill at the special stages, while Sonic 1 has a few challenging segments but even then it's still a pretty easy/forgiving game.

The games are supposed to be accessible, and all the ones that I actually like are.

[Truner]

But didn't he work on games like Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06?
Now while I did (barely) enjoy Shadow the Hedgehog and I think that Sonic 06 is the best entry in the "Adventure" series, they have nothing on recent games. Sure, they could be harder, but as long as the gameplay is fun, I don't mind the easiness.

For me, the boost is fun... however, I don't understand how a hedgehog that can travel at speeds unimaginable needs an alien to get somewhere fast. Even along a few points. He's supposed to be able to travel at the Speed of SOUND and that is certainly faster than what that damned Wisp made him do. But back to the boost: it's there for those who want to exploit it. While the game does not awards you for doing so, it is possible to beat a stage without boost. Rarely is it really needed. Like Spagonia, where you have to break through glasses...

So in the end, I don't know if I want to have the guy back or not. As it stands, Sonic Team now makes a whole lot better games than he ever did.*

*even if one of them is a game reusing ideas Naka did.

And yes, games need to ditch lives. Look at Rayman Origins, a fun game that can be hard even without lives or continues. Giving you 46928498245298 lives ain't any better.

This post has been edited by Truner: 20 May 2012 - 12:21 AM

[Thousand Pancake]

AerosolSP, on 18 May 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

An in-universe explanation is all well and good, but it's boring from a gameplay standpoint. It's like rolling every-goddamn-where in the classics. You knew you were basically indestructible as long as you had enough momentum to keep running. It was alright then, though, since you had to have some idea of what you were doing to roll around everywhere.

But putting enemies in your way just to let you boost through them is...dumb. It does nothing to enhance the sense of speed, since it's treated more like a "kill stuff and go fast" ability rather than a reward for player skill. Boosting's only saving grace is that clever use of it is intrinsic to getting great times.

Perhaps the quasi-invincibility should wear off after the first couple seconds of boost. It would probably promote more risk/reward and make the boost feel less cheap. The boost could become available and/or last longer after a period of sustained running, making it a speed-based power rather than a ring-based power.

[Sik]

Dark Sonic, on 19 May 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Honestly the only difference between losing a life and a game over is that a game over forces you to start from the beginning of the level where as losing a life means you start over from a check point.

And this is the reason why lives are not removed probably. Without lives the way checkpoints work wouldn't make much sense: why do you restart from there if you don't quit the game but restart from the beginning if you do? Why not save there instead?

Actually there is a Sonic game that got rid of lives the way you want: Chaotix. And it got rid of checkpoints too, meaning that if you lost, you had to do the entire level all over again (though then again Chaotix had the whole level shuffling gimmick which made matters worse as you couldn't just retry a level unless you got the slow down item). The result wasn't all that good really, and it was only bearable because you weren't stuck in the same level forever and because you run fast as hell in that game.

[TheKazeblade]

Im fine with the live system if the game itself is built around the idea that you re going to hit difficult areas enough to the point you may risk getting thrown back, but that isnt something you really have to worry about, at least in Sonic 4 and Generations. Now if they were to make it so theres a normal mode where no matter how many times you die you end up at your last checkpoint, and a hard mode where you re given a fixed amount of lives (with little or no additional lives given) I feel that would give the live system a bit more relevence.

As for Naka, if the game was a labor of love with more of a development cycle, I would love to see him helm a game again. But the fact of the matter is, Sonic games are now one of the only four franchises coming to the states from Sega anymore, so the dev cycle will remain rapid as heck; I don't doubt we re going to get an announcement of the next core Sonic game within the next few months, if they follow the same cycle they have been since Colors was announced.

Also, I don't agree with those saying Naka's departure was a direct reason that Sonic games began increasing in quality. IMHO, the reason that Sonic games increased in quality was because Sonic '06 was the final straw and showed the collapse of the Sonic Adventure style from a technical standpoint; it was completely panned critically, the majority of the team, if I recall, was fired, and they had to start over. It had next to nothing to do with Naka.

The current style of play has the potential for fair difficulty, but hand-holdy design choices hold it back. I just want a legitimate difficulty setting in the core Sonic games again, like Generations'ablility to turn off Omochao and pit alerts, but taken to the next level. Also, more additional paths that are difficult to get to, and even more difficult to stay on. The framework is there.

I am also, like others, of the opinion that boosting makes things a bit too easy. Which is why I believe the way Sonic ought to operate is Adventure-esque speed cap and controls until you reach that speed cap, then you can manually "shift" Sonic into high gear, giving him a generations-esque speed cap which, when that is reached, activates boost-like invincibility, maintanable for only as long as you can keep your momentum. This will make ordinary objects, (like walls and inclines) a threat, even if they do no damage to Sonic, because you want to maintain boost mode.

This concept could be expanded to bringing back the speed shoes, which could operate on Sonic Rush's system when you reach full boost gauge: Unlimited boost for a limited time that can be activated regardless of your current speed. To expand even further, Generations-Esque boost could be an unlockable ability when you reach a certain amount of points, so now it still remains a reward for success.

All of the framework is there, the design and mechanics just need to reflect such changes and gameplay will both become more robust and skill-based.