[SpeedStarTMQ]

Yuji Naka doesn't know what fans want. Since his disappearance, Sonic games have only gotten better. Frankly, Sonic Adventure 2's 100% completion was way too hard and unfair and if he thinks that the games are too easy then that's because he wants them to be super hard.

I found Episode I to be easy, Episode II was a bit more difficult, and I found Colours a bit hard in some spots, so it seems that Sonic games are a mixed bag nowadays.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 18 May 2012 - 05:17 PM

[Jason]

Blue Blood, on 18 May 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

TimmiT, on 18 May 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Jason, on 18 May 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

Quote

"Actually, when Prope was originally formed we were working on large titles, hoping to create something that's never been seen in the industry before. Unfortunately, those 2 titles were cancelled in mid-development and never made public," he revealed.

I guess that means Rodea The Sky Soldier was one of them... .

You might want to read what he said again. He says that the titles were never made public, Rodea cannot be one of them.

Not to mention Rodea is actually finished and just awaiting publication.

16 months since the reveal. I find that waiting for publication for that long a bit of a stretch.

[Dude]

I like some of naka's style, and it's a shame he never got to work on a 3d game that wasn't rushed as hell but I don't think the series needs a complete restructuring and I definitely disagree with the games not being fun.

[David The Lurker]

Hey, let's all gang up on Yuji Naka because that's the cool thing to do!!

Wait, no it's not. This isn't 2003 anymore, people. Have we so soon forgotten that Yuji Naka wasn't the one who made the Sonic franchise go downhill? To be fair, he could have stepped in and changed things, but he didn't. There are a million reasons as to why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply a case where he was burned out with Sonic and wanted to work on new projects. Just like what happened between the classic games and Sonic Adventure.

The original Sonic Adventure was developed exclusively in Japan, by Sonic Team. Yuji Naka was in charge, credited as a producer. He was definitely there day in and day out, overseeing how the progress of the game was coming along. Yes, Takashi Iizuka was the Director of the game. But the way he even explains it, it seemed much more like a pooling of ideas from all over the board. But after Adventure, the Sonic games were not the babies of Yuji Naka.

Sonic Team split in half, one staying in Japan and the other heading off to San Francisco. Sonic Team USA were responsible for Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Nights: Journey of Dreams. This branch was led by Takashi Iizuka, and while Yuji Naka was still credited as Producer on the three Sonic titles, he wasn't there day to day. He was in Japan, working on Chu Chu Rocket, Samba De Amigo, and Phantasy Star Online. Also accepting the fact that by this point Yuji Naka was more a business man and less a game developer, blaming him for the decline of the franchise is misplaced. He wrote off on concepts and ideas, but it might have just been a case where Sonic did not excite him. He always wanted to try something new, and for all the faults those Sonic games had, they certainly did try something new.

Adventure 2, Heroes, and Shadow were Iizuka's babies, plain and simple.

Also, trying to blame Yuji Naka on Sonic 2006's failure is not fair. I don't think you can blame any one person for that game. It was mismanaged to hell, and complete shifts in management more than once, and just wasn't developed to the point that it needed to be. Yuji Naka leaving did hurt it, but I don't know if it would have been as bad if he had stayed. That is a "What If" scenario that just goes in circles.

Also, just like you can't blame Naka for Sonic's failures, I don't think you can say that Iizuka is the sole reason that Sonic is getting better. Remember, Iizuka was simply the producer on those games as well, and while he had input, it's not like Unleashed, Colors and Generations were his brainchilds.

Finally, yes, Sonic games are some of the more easier platformers out there. But the older games did give games the benefit of the doubt. The newer games certainly don't. It would nice to see some flurries of difficulty in certain acts that weren't just moments of cheap frustration but actually make you feel you've accomplished something once you get through the obstacle.

[Sodaholic]

One thing I'd really like to see is another 2D game strongly in the style of Sonic CD, but with much more difficulty. I just wonder though how much the Genesis Sonic formula could actually produce a challenging game though, or if there'd have to be some design changes to make things harder.

[Hukos]

David The Lurker, on 18 May 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Finally, yes, Sonic games are some of the more easier platformers out there. But the older games did give games the benefit of the doubt. The newer games certainly don't. It would nice to see some flurries of difficulty in certain acts that weren't just moments of cheap frustration but actually make you feel you've accomplished something once you get through the obstacle.

Eh, I'm not bothered by it. Difficulty in Sonic games very rarely seems to be something that can be well done, due to the whole ring system. The only way to make Sonic games really challenging is by including cheap things like an overabundance of bottomless pits or cheap enemy placement that you have no possible way of countering without explicitly knowing where the enemy is beforehand, and that honestly just feels cheap instead of actual difficulty and comes off as frustrating. Either a Sonic games is too easy, or it becomes too cheap and frustrating.

If I want a difficult game, I'll go back to playing Castlevania 3 for the 100th or so time, which despite its flaws feels incredibly rewarding for getting past it's difficult sections. I play Sonic games for reasons outside of being difficult (Music, level design, aesthetics, controls, physics, etc.).

Sodaholic, on 18 May 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

One thing I'd really like to see is another 2D game strongly in the style of Sonic CD, but with much more difficulty. I just wonder though how much the Genesis Sonic formula could actually produce a challenging game though, or if there'd have to be some design changes to make things harder.

For a Sonic game to be difficult without being cheap, I honestly think the ring mechanic would have to be scrapped in favor of a health system or something along those lines. In the old games, if you get hit, you have plenty of invincibility frames to go back and grab a few rings as well as taking out any nearby bosses/enemies without regard for Sonic's safety. Essentially, if you're a smart player then Sonic has virtually unlimited health unless he falls into a pit or something.

[Guess Who]

It's true. Generations, as polished and pretty and fun as it can be, is easy as hell. The only modern Sonic game with any real difficulty is Unleashed HD. Too bad everyone complained about how cheap it was. Babies.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I wouldn't say that anyone blames Yuji solely for 2006, though I think there was definitely something in it.

C'mon, a founding member of Sonic Team - who was Sonic's godfather - leaves the scene during the worst year of Sonic history? There were time contraints, but Yuji leaving could have put extra strain on a game which was already without creative drive and distinction. Obviously Yuji had his own plans for the franchise when he and BigIsland fell out over the direction of Sonic Adventure 2- which was a turning point in the franchises history, aesthetically and design wise, and this shows in other games during his time like Shadow The Hedgehog.

As soon as Naka left there was a change in the direction and style of the franchise. It was whittled down to Sonic, it became more colourful, it relied less on Dragon Ball Z style writing and design and started going back to his roots. Sonic & The Secret Rings was the first of these types of games feating simplistic gameplay and only Sonic (who was also sporting a redesign from 2006). Sonic Unleashed was next. We've since had both Episodes of Sonic 4, Sonic Colours and Generations, all games aimed at re-exploring the original Sonic stylings and bringing the series firmly back to the ground. Though it still had games in the transition to this period that kept it on the rocky road at times, like Sonic & the Black Knight, it's clear that since Naka left the series has been coming back full circle, and I dare not say that this is a coincidence.

Whilst I loved Adventure 2 and Heroes, and I miss some of the deeper storylines of the Sonic series, I think we'l be seeing some similar things again. We're in another period currently that we're actually almost out of- what I like to call the "roots" period. Sonic is reconnecting with it's past to bring the old school and new gamers together in what made Sonic good in the first place. This is something which is becoming increasingly common in media since 2005, and is popular for such a reason. Film series reboots like Batman, Spiderman and James Bond have shown that films are starting to become more realistic and gritty, as they often were in the 60's when these franchises were at their peak, and this is reconnecting their audiences and tying their franchises up again after they've gotten out of hand (Did you see Die Another Day?). Games are also doing similar things in redesigning and remarketing their iconic series. Mario has been doing it with his recent outings, Rayman Origins is another good example, and even games like Call of Duty are going back to that old "FPS DEATHMATCH" style. Anything retro has been the rage in all stylings of media for the last few years, and I think we're starting to leave that "freshness" behind now and carry on and expand upon this new and suited style, as films and games alike are starting to do.

Expect a fully new Sonic game in the near future with queues from the old, but totally reliant on itself without needing to go back in time or redesign graphics from past games as the recent Sonic titles have.

I hope that made sense- I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed this whole shebang with media lately.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 18 May 2012 - 06:07 PM

[Aerosol]

David The Lurker, on 18 May 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Finally, yes, Sonic games are some of the more easier platformers out there. But the older games did give games the benefit of the doubt. The newer games certainly don't. It would nice to see some flurries of difficulty in certain acts that weren't just moments of cheap frustration but actually make you feel you've accomplished something once you get through the obstacle.

They're easy...once you wrap your head around the way he moves in his environment. Watching my fiancee try to play Sonic 3 had to be one of the most hilarious things I'd ever seen, bless her heart.

[Turbohog]

I mostly agree with what SpeedStarTMQ said. I for one don't blame Naka for SA2 onwards, but I feel like he still could've stepped in and said no to a lot of the shit ideas. He wasn't looking after the franchise or his company's name like he should have been. That being said, I absolutely love his work on the original Sonic games, Adventure, and a lot of the other sonicteam games.

Also, I don't know about Yuji Naka, but my biggest gripe about Modern Sonic is the boost. To me, that is what makes it so easy. Although Generations wasn't as "boost to win" as Unleashed, I still feel like it was there too much. I'd rather see boosting as some sort of temporary power up personally.

[SpeedStarTMQ]

Agreed, I like the boost, but I feel that there is a heavy reliance on it when there should not be. We've had quite a number of games with the boost in and it is so ingrained now as part of the series as well as now one of Sonic's abilities that I can't see it going away in future, not that I'm saying that it's had it's day yet, because it hasn't.

The boost does shape the entire design of the 3D games though. Without the boost, I think there could be a much better transition from 3D to 2D without the game either having to have you turn a corner and stop you dead, leading to slow and clunky 2D sections, or turning in to 2D mode and having Sonic slow down to a jog, which is something Unleashed often did which just felt weird. Without the boost they could do greater things with the 2D aspect of the modern gameplay.

[MathUser]

Sonic 1, 2, 3, and Adventure 1 I have played and enjoyed and think are pretty easy. I don't think games need to be hard to be enjoyable. It's fun to sample all the games worlds, not replay the same ones over and over to unlock the next one.

[corneliab]

Unleashed, Colors, and Generations have demonstrated more difficulty than most of the mainline games that have come before them. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Funny he should be mentioning "fun" as well, considering that he seemed fine with letting Heroes and Shadow go out the door, in addition to leaving Sonic '06 to flounder.

Turbohog said:

Also, I don't know about Yuji Naka, but my biggest gripe about Modern Sonic is the boost. To me, that is what makes it so easy. Although Generations wasn't as "boost to win" as Unleashed...

Yeah, no. Unless you're referring to the PS2/Wii version that no one gives a shit about, Unleashed often punished you for recklessly boosting.

This post has been edited by corneliab: 18 May 2012 - 06:36 PM

[Turbohog]

corneliab, on 18 May 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Turbohog said:

Also, I don't know about Yuji Naka, but my biggest gripe about Modern Sonic is the boost. To me, that is what makes it so easy. Although Generations wasn't as "boost to win" as Unleashed...

Yeah, no. Unless you're referring to the PS2/Wii version that no one gives a shit about, Unleashed often punished you for recklessly boosting.

I've actually played both versions, so they might be a bit jumbled in my mind. Even if it punishes you for recklessly boosting, I'm still not fond of the many sections where you boost through a straight area and run through enemies like you're invincible. There just seemed to be a lot of autopilot in the game to me.

[corneliab]

Turbohog, on 18 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

I've actually played both versions, so they might be a bit jumbled in my mind. Even if it punishes you for recklessly boosting, I'm still not fond of the many sections where you boost through a straight area and run through enemies like you're invincible. There just seemed to be a lot of autopilot in the game to me.

Autopilot sections aren't something that Unleashed spearheaded. I can probably name comparable sections/gimmicks for nearly every zone in Sonic 3&K- it's just harmless visual flair that, no, does not overshadow the rest of the game.