[Stealth]

Sonic CD X, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

While yours has good gameplay, it does not have more than one level

I wasn't really aware that having more than one existing level was a requirement for a means by which someone will be making their own game. Also:

#_SetLevel
:95		;Zone
:0		;Act

(BTW, internally, menu screens and the like count as "levels" and are still grouped into "acts" of "zones")

Sonic CD X, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

and lower-quality audio.

Check the sound effect quality again, those are 44k. The wav music in the Mettrix demo is using old 11k versions, and the XM arrangements used are "unimpressive", but the mixer runs at 44k. All-around this is the "It does more than what's in any existing demo" thing all over again. There is a lot to that.

Sonic CD X, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

You're on the right track

Yeah, I try my best. :|

Sonic CD X, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

But aren't you helping with Megamix?

Oh, yeah, it sure is nice of them to let me help out. :|

[sonicblur]

Stealth, on 28 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

Sonic CD X, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

But aren't you helping with Megamix?

Oh, yeah, it sure is nice of them to let me help out. :|

I'm glad you're helping them out. It wouldn't be the same without you.

This is very off topic, but it just occurred to me. You did a lot of work to get Megamix running on the Sega CD. Considering what you know so far with your experiences over the past few years, would it have been more or less work for you to write a limited E02 runtime for the Sega CD for that project? Obviously there are some aspects that you couldn't have done with E02, but in retrospect if you were to do it again, would you have done it for the potential benefits?

[Aerosol]

Sonic CD X, on 27 April 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Oh, I didn't know it wasn't Mettrix anymore...

But, anyway, I'm not saying you lack skill. It's very good gameplay; there are some bugs, but not too many. What I lack is the ability to figure out how to break into advanced engines like yours and Taxman's and figuring out how to make my own games. I usually use GameMaker, but no one makes good engines for that. The only one I ever found was the "Sonic Dash" engine by Damizean (however you spell that) and RougeYoshi, and...well, to be honest, it's terrible in every way.

Your engine and Taxman's engine are much more advanced, but not as easy to break into. But development-wise, I perfer Taxman's because it also has the capability to move from level to level like the Genesis/CD games did, and it features high-quality audio. While yours has good gameplay, it does not have more than one level and lower-quality audio. You're on the right track; but the engine, for me, anyway, just isn't the best.

But aren't you helping with Megamix? That's looking pretty good! I can't wait for the new version to come out; I love the Starry Night Zone music!!!

You need to take a step back, my friend. E02 is capable of doing everything you want it to do, you just need to know how. What you should do is hunker down and learn things, not totally dismiss something because it isn't easy enough to use. You're not going to find an engine that has all the "hard to implement" features done for you. You need to figure out how to implement them yourself.

[Sonic CD X]

LordOfSquad, on 27 April 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

the lower quality audio is because they're lower quality sound effects.

Uh, yeah, I kinda figured that...

Anyway, don't take my words too personally; I'm just one guy, and a bit of a n0Ob, I'll admit.

Stealth, on 28 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

I wasn't really aware that having more than one existing level was a requirement for a means by which someone will be making their own game.

No, I just meant I won't be able to use it because I wouldn't figure out how to do level transfers, like RSE. Look, I'm just a n0Ob who doesn't hack much yet, alright? You're doing good, let's just leave it at that.

AerosolSP, on 28 April 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

You need to take a step back, my friend. E02 is capable of doing everything you want it to do, you just need to know how. What you should do is hunker down and learn things, not totally dismiss something because it isn't easy enough to use. You're not going to find an engine that has all the "hard to implement" features done for you. You need to figure out how to implement them yourself.

The only reason I haven't been able to do so is because of friggin' sch**l. Come summertime, I'll be able to sit down and FOCUS.

This post has been edited by Sonic CD X: 28 April 2012 - 11:03 PM

[LordOfSquad]

I really wish I could just post the gif of Michael Jackson eating popcorn and leave it at that.

May the luck o' the Irish smile upon ye.

[Stealth]

sonicblur, on 28 April 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

This is very off topic, but it just occurred to me. You did a lot of work to get Megamix running on the Sega CD. Considering what you know so far with your experiences over the past few years, would it have been more or less work for you to write a limited E02 runtime for the Sega CD for that project? Obviously there are some aspects that you couldn't have done with E02, but in retrospect if you were to do it again, would you have done it for the potential benefits?

Short answer is no, I wouldn't have :P

Longer response- E02 was already in progress even when I started Sonic for MegaCD. It wasn't very far along, though; I may not even have had the original hardcoded Sonic gameplay lifted from its predecessor implemented at the time. It hadn't even occurred to me to try and use it, really.. The original CD project had two specific purposes, neither of which an E02 port was particularly appropriate for. It had to be the original game

Megamix was an extension of that to some degree- I had already done the conversion and decided to do the same thing to Megamix, even though it meant tearing down and reconstructing the game all over again. The issues with E02 come in here- Megamix was already heavily underway, and there was even less to the basic Sonic engine for E02 than it is now. Even if I were to successfully recreate important aspects of E02 for the SegaCD, it would have meant having to re-code all of the rest of the basic Sonic 1 plus everything uniquely Megamix

To be honest, I don't think I see any real benefit to using E02 as a means to create a Sonic game for SegaCD. You're still dealing with exactly the same graphic, sound, storage, and processing limitations, and to top it off, you'd be throwing on additional RAM and processing overhead for asset management and script interpretation. That's a lot of stress to throw on 64k+256k+512k of RAM and 7mhz+12mhz of processing power. As it is, the system is under strain at times running the native code version. Once you concede to the hardware limitations, the remaining aspects of E02 (aside from multiplatform support, of course) are really similar enough in nature to the original Sonic engine and assembly language programming that it's not worth the cost, even if Megamix were multiplatform

Sonic CD X, on 28 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

LordOfSquad, on 27 April 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

the lower quality audio is because they're lower quality sound effects.

Uh, yeah, I kinda figured that...

Yet you didn't figure that those could be replaced? :/

The 2007 Retro Sonic demo you're attached to comes packed in a data.bin file, but Project Mettrix has been distributed as separate files for the longest time. Recently I switched to my own packed format for the game proper, but very shortly afterward, I released the public "template" as separate files so they could be used to build a game. I had already upgraded the sound effects by that time, anyway. You may notice that I've already pointed that out. The music can be just as easily replaced. There is no evidence of any of this being the case as of the last publicized state of Retro Sonic

Sonic CD X, on 28 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Stealth, on 28 April 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

I wasn't really aware that having more than one existing level was a requirement for a means by which someone will be making their own game.

No, I just meant I won't be able to use it because I wouldn't figure out how to do level transfers, like RSE.

There is no evidence that there was or would have been a system in place by which one custom level can proceed to the next. If such a thing weren't already implemented, it would have been impossible to perform using Retro Sonic such as it was- the only thing you can infer from the 2007 demo would be that you could drop new level layouts into the "Custom Levels" selection list. There was no clear indication that new art could be used, or new sounds or music, and certainly not new enemies and other objects, or stringing an entire game together rather than playing individual zones.

On the other hand, with the Sonic template for E02, and even pre-E02 Project Mettrix having their files laid out entirely in the open, you can see that any asset can be replaced, and with the exposed scripts, you can see how you can make other changes and additions, including establishing a level order by which the game progresses from zone to zone. The original engine for Project Mettrix, which I get the impression that you were basing some of this on did this in a more novice-accessible way, by means of a simple, modifiable list of zone IDs

Sonic CD X, on 28 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

AerosolSP, on 28 April 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

You need to take a step back, my friend. E02 is capable of doing everything you want it to do, you just need to know how. What you should do is hunker down and learn things, not totally dismiss something because it isn't easy enough to use. You're not going to find an engine that has all the "hard to implement" features done for you. You need to figure out how to implement them yourself.

The only reason I haven't been able to do so is because of friggin' sch**l. Come summertime, I'll be able to sit down and FOCUS.

You may have benefited from waiting until summer to get into this at all. You need more time to take a good hard look at what's available, and even how you would actually have to go about doing whatever it is you want to do. Even if you do know what that is, it's clear that you currently have even less of the necessary knowledge than you seem to think you do. Some people may be willing to help you get that knowledge, though, and you can improve the odds of that by humbling yourself a little more and otherwise projecting a more appealing personality

Sonic CD X, on 28 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

Look, I'm just a n0Ob who doesn't hack much yet, alright?

I'm sorry. I didn't realize that this fact made it better for you to behave in a patronizing manner and remain unapologetic instead of worse. I'll have to remember that. :|

Sonic CD X, on 28 April 2012 - 10:56 PM, said:

You're doing good, let's just leave it at that.

I'm glad you think so. :|

[Billy]

I don't really see what kind of niche E02 is trying to fill. It certainly doesn't fit the Game Maker/MMF crowd, since it requires actual scripting. It almost seems like someone who could make use of E02 would also just as easily be able to make their own 2D engine anyway. I'm sure this is not the case, but this is what it seems like on the surface. This is unfortunate, because a lot of talented content creators for games like this aren't always technically minded. Just trying to skim the documentation is a daunting task, given Stealth's affinity for using as many words as possible (see the above post). I'd have to see something made in E02 by someone other than stealth before I'd ever consider using it. Then again, I'm not really what anyone would consider a "content creator", so what do I know?

This is no way an attack on you Stealth, by the way; you're an all-around awesome guy s'far as I can tell. E02 looks interesting, it just scares people away, I think.

[Aerosol]

I've always seen it as a way to develop games in such a way that much of what makes the game works is within the confines of the Mega Drive's capabilities.

[Guess Who]

Okay, so, uh. The original thread's question has been answered - quite thoroughly - and now it's just kind of dissolving into Stealth having to explain basic concepts of game development. Lock? Lock.

Sonic CD X, please try to do a bit more research next time.