[Volpino]

FuzzballFox, on 29 March 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

I'll be honest here- why the hell should you NOT have one? The game isn't when you learn it.
If you go over the limit TOUGH. Get better. Sounds blunt but that's because many older games used to be and are still fucking hard.
Sonic is piss easy compared to many other games and yet it encourages skill building and practise. Didn't make it in time? Then practise and try again.

Same goes for lives...loss them all and you're not playing well- Game overs show you are not doing well. Again, practise and you'll get better at it.

I read this as:

FuzzballFox, on 29 March 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

If you go over the time limit, then you weren't playing the game for the reason I wanted you to and the developers have the right to not let you have fun!

[Afti]

The current 10-minute time limit is useless, but a proper one is intended to be part of the fun- it adds pressure and encourages you to perform well. You brought up Super Mario 3D Land earlier; some of the later special world stages are excellent examples of that. You have 30 seconds, which won't get you through the level. Period. You need to get from time pickup to time pickup, and as fast as you can, because each one only adds a measly 10 seconds to the clock. You're free to say you don't enjoy it, but a well-considered (not ten minutes long) time limit is a conscious game design choice, and if it doesn't mesh with you you should probably just play something more suited to your tastes.

[Volpino]

Afti, on 29 March 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

The current 10-minute time limit is useless, but a proper one is intended to be part of the fun- it adds pressure and encourages you to perform well. You brought up Super Mario 3D Land earlier; some of the later special world stages are excellent examples of that. You have 30 seconds, which won't get you through the level. Period. You need to get from time pickup to time pickup, and as fast as you can, because each one only adds a measly 10 seconds to the clock. You're free to say you don't enjoy it, but a well-considered (not ten minutes long) time limit is a conscious game design choice, and if it doesn't mesh with you you should probably just play something more suited to your tastes.

Or demand games be more like the very much legitimate and canon Advance games, letting me turn it off.

There are more things I like about Sonic than "herp derp challenge hardcore pro endboss being cool"

Aesculapius Piranha, on 29 March 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Punish those who truly suck so they do better next time. Thats generally the nature of games.

It is not the only purpose of games.

Mercury, on 29 March 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

BlazeHedgehog, on 29 March 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Sometimes you just have to man up.

I don't think you're getting it.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone who dislikes the time limit dislikes it because it's too challenging. You'd have to totally suck at life, let alone Sonic, for it to be a serious hindrance.

No, like some have been saying in this thread, the time limits need to be even stricter to be a real challenge - perhaps even tailored to the specific zone rather than a lazy 10:00 slapped on everything.

The problem is the time limit is never a real challenge, so the only time you ever come up against it is when you're dicking around in the game for fun - suddenly the limit has nothing to do with challenge, it's merely an annoyance, a lazy design feature that's not doing its job.

Also, I personally hate how abstract it is. Rings counting down 'cos you're Hyper and in space? Fine. Air running out underwater? Fine. Wall of fire chasing you? Fine. Spent ten minutes in the zone? Not fine - it doesn't make any sense at all.

Time attacking, however, makes perfect sense, does tailor the limit to each zone, and with an online score board will give you plenty of opportunity to "man up".

...I hate how a legitimate topic about game design can so quickly turn into "hurr hurr you guys suck at Sonic don't be so lazy".

Fucking Christ I love you so much, you're my fucking hero right now.

I get fed up with people who are too closed-minded to see gaming as anything but a fun challenge; partly because I think they're full of shit (I bet none of them would have played Sonic if all the mechanics were the same but they controlled a red circle in black and white environments) and partly because they never seem to get gaming's other appeals. Gaming is not just a sport, it stopped being "just" a challenge the very SECOND artists got involved with it. Now it's much, much, MUCH MORE.

[Afti]

Honestly, as cool as the surreal environments are, most Sonic characters are kinda awful! Sonic himself is a decent cartoon character, but most of the rest are mediocre at best; I'd be fine with replacing them with abstracts!

[Volpino]

Afti, on 29 March 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Honestly, as cool as the surreal environments are, most Sonic characters are kinda awful! Sonic himself is a decent cartoon character, but most of the rest are mediocre at best; I'd be fine with replacing them with abstracts!

Not sure where that came from. Personally, I like the character designs that are mediocre more than the ones that aren't. At least (classic) Tails LOOKS like a fox, at least Cream LOOKS like a rabbit, at least Marine LOOKS like a raccoon, the abstract ones annoy me, but that's a different topic.

It's a bit more than just how characters look, hell, it's even a bit more than how environments look, at least to me, but I feel like I'm getting into a territory I cannot possibly make sense in, even to the most attentive listener.

[KingofHarts]

Afti, on 29 March 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Honestly, as cool as the surreal environments are, most Sonic characters are kinda awful! Sonic himself is a decent cartoon character, but most of the rest are mediocre at best; I'd be fine with replacing them with abstracts!

What???

[Clutch]

I don't care for it. The 10 minute time limit is far too long for someone who knows what they're doing, and easily forgettable until you just want to screw around/hit the casino night barrel.

I'm fine with the presence of a timer that cuts off at 10 minutes: It functions as a sort of stop watch for people who really do want to speed-run the level, or just see if they can complete the level more efficiently than their last run. I just don't think it should result in a death. A score reduction would be just fine.

Also holy shit, I think some people on this board clamoring for harder limits and damning the casual (hate that word) audience need to remember people other than die-hard Sonic fans who know the ins and outs of level design and mechanics might enjoy/want to try playing Sonic games. You need some accessibility to get popularity and sales.

[Vaiyt]

10 minutes is a very lenient time limit for Sonic standards. I never bothered to care about it.

[Volpino]

Clutch, on 29 March 2012 - 09:20 PM, said:

I don't care for it. The 10 minute time limit is far too long for someone who knows what they're doing, and easily forgettable until you just want to screw around/hit the casino night barrel.

I'm fine with the presence of a timer that cuts off at 10 minutes: It functions as a sort of stop watch for people who really do want to speed-run the level, or just see if they can complete the level more efficiently than their last run. I just don't think it should result in a death. A score reduction would be just fine.

Also holy shit, I think some people on this board clamoring for harder limits and damning the casual (hate that word) audience need to remember people other than die-hard Sonic fans who know the ins and outs of level design and mechanics might enjoy/want to try playing Sonic games. You need some accessibility to get popularity and sales.

Oldfags have always bitched about newfags and I've never found crankier oldfags anywhere else but Retro. Seriously, all half the community does is bitch and moan because games are too easy and casuals play them and kids won't get off their lawn half the time, it disgusts me because they disregard my reason for playing video games, which I feel is a valid reason. Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of games I really enjoy are piss-easy, so it is physically, humanly possible to like games for other reasons than challenge. Imagine that!

One thing I liked about the original Spyro was that the flying levels were timed, but once you beat them the first time, the timer counted up instead of down. I spent so much time in them flying around, feeling relaxed and pretending to really be a dragon. I thought that was a very fair reward for my efforts.

[Blue Emerald]

I don't even notice the time limit; I've just never died from a time-over in a Sonic game. In fact, I remember bumming around in Sonic CD trying to find the generators, and even then during those times I don't think I ever went beyond the 8-minute mark, and Sonic CD's the only Sonic game where I've ever spent large amounts of time in a level.

[serpx]

I bet the time limit came from Mario, when they were taking ideas from it to compete against it. It probably just stuck as something to have, even though it really serves no purpose other than to be annoying.

[corneliab]

The time limit has only ever been a problem in Carnival Night and Sandopolis, and that was back when I was a stupid kid who didn't know any better.

It really is just... there. Hardly an essential thing, and none of the games gain anything from including it. It's pointless but harmless.

[Metal Man88]

The timer doesn't really bother me. I don't think it needs to be in, but it should be allowed to turn it on for those who like such a thing.

[Molotok]

serpx, on 29 March 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

I bet the time limit came from Mario, when they were taking ideas from it to compete against it. It probably just stuck as something to have, even though it really serves no purpose other than to be annoying.

I only quote this post because I was going to bring up Mario myself.

Really, it depends on the genre of the game in question. I suppose I must be one of these "oldfags" that someone (I won't say who) has been bitching about, but then that might be because I played games like Super Mario Bros. (and 2, 3, World, etc.) and Gauntlet where some sort of time limit could end your current life/game. Then again, I also enjoyed The Legend of Zelda, but that's why I mentioned that about genres before. Also, games across almost all genres have gotten easier through the years. Why I remember playing Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy and you didn't have this namby-pamby bullshit of saving everywhere. The later Final Fantasy games had a good medium: you could save on the overworld but not in the 'dungeons' unless you were in a special area. Old adventure games actually had dead-end paths if you didn't get the right item or other such situation and you could just wander around the game in frustration.

Also, if we're going to be complaining about something killing you if you dicked around for too long (and a perfect illustration of older games being harder), "Rat Race" from Battletoads, anyone? Or one-hit deaths in Contra?

Yes, I find myself agreeing with those that can't make the time limit just need practice. Not every game can be easy, you know?

[Greg the Cat]

This is interesting because with how cinematic Sega was going with the franchise a few years ago, you would think that they would do what Capcom did with Megaman and get rid of all this extra baggage especially since the ridiculously still time limit and fucking ranking system (though incredibly lenient nowadays) only push them to make the blandest straight lines ever seen since this side of Crash Bandicoot.

I appreciate challenge. I love challenging games in fact. But I have to admit that the timer has been pointless for a long time and if you want challenge then demand specific tailored challenges (or earn the right to explore every nook and cranny by completing the main game, I am a little indifferent on either). But man, a lot of people are acting as if you who are advocating a time limitless game are asking for a damn Super Guide. I am indifferent to points, times, and ranks. Sometimes I would like to enjoy a game without pressure while still doing whatever conventions haven't been made obsolete.