[W.A.C.]

Ravenfreak, on 29 March 2012 - 02:27 AM, said:

For those who don't feel like playing the game in Debug mode, I hacked Sonic 2. See This post for the hack. And for the most part, I don't care either way about the time limit. The only time I hated getting a time over was in Carnival Night Act 2 with the damn barrel when I was younger.

:o

THANK YOU SO MUCH! If you do this for both Sonic 1 and 3&K, that would be amazing.

[Toasty]

There's something seriously wrong if you can't beat Sonic 2 in the time limit...even exploring everything as a kid I never got a time over. The only time I recall getting a time over is when I spent like 9 minutes playing the slots; I also got 999 rings!

I have run out of time in Marble Garden, Sandopolis, and Death Egg. I usually haul balls trying to get through now.

[DTX]

I don't know, I like being compelled to not drag my feet and I like the games having a very cohesive sense of "Okay, Robotnik is terrorizing the inhabitants of x and upsetting the balance of nature and industrially diminishing the beauty of x's untainted lands, so run as fast as you can through all the zones, stopping him at every crossroad, and defeat him once and for all at his main base to prevent him from carrying out his ultimate objective." The games' storylines give off the sense that Sonic has a time limit each time to stop Robotnik. No time for lollygagging or exploring!

That aside, I find the time limit actually very annoying, and I did die a bunch when I was younger because of it. I feel if the games must have it, it should be roughly 16 mins.; anyone who takes that long to pass an act deserves to lose a life as punishment. Just my 5¢.

This post has been edited by DTX: 29 March 2012 - 03:45 AM

[BlazeHedgehog]

Sonic is a fast game. Time limits push you to complete the level quickly, because if you don't hurry up, you're going to run out of time.

It's one of those things that's kind of supposed to be annoying, but in a good way. Like underwater levels. Being pressured to do something quickly can be fun in the right doses. It's an element of tension.

It also helps reign level designers in - I mean, really, does anybody enjoy Sonic levels that last more than ten minutes? That really cuts down on replayability, at least for me. That's when you get garbage like Sonic Heroes' and their "lol let's cut and paste this same identical corridor three times because the level should be longer".

[KingofHarts]

I am in the minority... I love time limits. To me they reinforce that they game is about speed... and what is more motivation to haul ass than a time limit?
I am neutral about lives, although I am quite happy when I get 99 lives... or in Sonic 2, exploiting the Chemical Plant Zone bug to get 255 lives. They really do nothing for me though... I can complete the games without dying. (except Metallic Madness Act 3... I still get stuck on THAT one.)

I am including both, agreeably archaic, aspects in my fangame... for the sake of tradition. With time limits though... I am implementing options: Either traditional 10:00 limits, fixed time limits based on the zone/act/difficulty you are playing, OR no time limits. That will make everyone happy...
But I am NOT including continues... IMO those are the things that are pointless to me. I have 100 lives, what the hell do I need a continue for??? Sonic 1, I could understand... but after that, go away...

As far as the Sonic CD achievement Savior of the Planet... As long as you know where the machines are... that achievement is shit easy, time limits OR not... If you aren't familiar with the machine locations... that's fine... but if you know where they are, you can't say its too hard... I can zip through many of those zones and get the machines. Only a couple give me a little bit of trouble.

As far as Time Over... I've only gotten Time Over on a couple of occasions:
1. Carnival Night Zone Act 2 barrel when I first played it.
2. Sandopolis Zone Act 2, the first couple times I played it.
3. Sonic CD, when I stayed still for a few minutes just to see if what everyone said would happen was really true... I was pleasantly surprised and laughed.

[Jayextee]

Ignoring most of the whining here, Sonic 1 should have level time limits of two minutes. Sonic 2 should have three. Then it would mean something. Gamers don't like to be challenged much anymore though, do they?

[Aesculapius Piranha]

Haven't a lot of games done away with the time limit and the timer is just a way to time yourself in a game about speed?

[BlazeHedgehog]

Aesculapius Piranha, on 29 March 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Haven't a lot of games done away with the time limit and the timer is just a way to time yourself in a game about speed?

A lot of games these days are also unreasonably easier than they used to be, too. There's a lot of things people are getting rid of in games today because they're trying to be more "cinematic" and "accessible" and less game-y. I remember listening to a podcast a year or two ago where somebody went on a tangent about how Bayonetta felt like a bit like a "relic" because it had a visible HUD at all times that displayed combo counters, score information, etc. and how "games don't do that anymore".

I found that kind of offensive, because there's a lot of things that "games don't do anymore" that maybe they should.

I'm a firm believer that sometimes a game has to grab you by the skull and force you to do things the hard way for it to be fun. "Time yourself" is a great idea in practice, but that just means "the game allows you to be lazy". Don't get me wrong, accessibility is great - to a point. But there's a lot of "Yay, you came in last place, but at least you finished, so here's a gold star" in videogames these days.

The punishment for failure has been reduced, and reduced, and reduced until you run in to situations where you have 75 lives in New Super Mario Bros. DS by the time you hit world 3 and you weren't even going out of your way to collect them.

Like I said, a timer means you have to hurry. The games are usually balanced so that you'll probably ever even take more than 6 minutes to beat a level, but there's still the lingering tension that you have to get to the end quickly or else you will die.

While you can say time limits have been phased out of games, keep in mind that Super Mario 3D Land actually added them back in, and as per Nintendo's recent reversion to making their newer games pretty challenging, SM3DL apparently gets legitimately difficult in its second half.

The flip side in all of this is that most recent Sonic games with 10 minute limits have also had the option to turn the timelimit off. It was in all the Sonic Advance games, for example.

This post has been edited by BlazeHedgehog: 29 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

[SomeSortOfRobot]

The time limit was only bothersome in Sonic CD. I can't imagine anyone spending more than 5 minutes in a Sonic level, unless they were just looking at every nook and cranny of the map, which one of you can probably attest to.

[SuperSonicRider]

I have never died from a time over, so I don't really care. If the level takes near 10 minutes to complete, then it's probably too long for its own good. I guess it could be a problem if you're searching through the level, but I've done some of that myself and, at the most, it's taken me around 6 or 7 minutes. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough for the time limit to become a problem or something?

And slightly off-topic:

Volpino, on 29 March 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

I got it to work twice, sadly, 3K is missing something from its debug mode that Sonic 3 had: The super box. That was awesome.

The "S" box is in Sonic 3 & Knuckles' debug mode; it just turns the character Hyper instead of Super (unless you're Tails).

[Afti]

The purpose of a time limit is to emphasize precise execution.

Sonic games need steeper time limits; 10 minutes is woefully ineffective.

[KingofHarts]

Afti, on 29 March 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

The purpose of a time limit is to emphasize precise execution.

Sonic games need steeper time limits; 10 minutes is woefully ineffective.

I am in that boat... hence the fixed option I will have in my game. (The time limit will be lower than 10:00 and change for every single map.) I think the problem is that many gamers nowadays just want their hand held all the way to instant gratification. I'm never too bothered with the VERY FEW (Like... counting on one hand) times I've gotten time over. It challenges you...

I suppose next, we will get Genesis hacks with the pitfall signs from Generations littered every 6 level blocks.

[ICEknight]

Lol casuals.

You guys should try the Mega Play version of Sonic 1. Now those are some nice time limits.

[Solid SOAP]

I wouldn't care had it not been a major annoyance in Sonic CD, and if it wasn't a restriction for the sake of restrictions. I hate how old Sonic and Mario games time you, there's no reason for it and it detracts from the experience for those who want to take their time.

Quote

Like I said, a timer means you have to hurry. The games are usually balanced so that you'll probably ever even take more than 6 minutes to beat a level, but there's still the lingering tension that you have to get to the end quickly or else you will die.

Shouldn't getting the higher score or a higher rank be incentive enough to complete it as fast as possible? That way there's the extra challenge for those who want it, and those who don't won't have to deal with it. Not that it's a major problem anyway, but I just find the inclusion of the 10 minute timer an annoying bug that exists only for the sake of it existing.

[BlazeHedgehog]

Solid SOAP, on 29 March 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

I wouldn't care had it not been a major annoyance in Sonic CD, and if it wasn't a restriction for the sake of restrictions. I hate how old Sonic and Mario games time you, there's no reason for it and it detracts from the experience for those who want to take their time.

Quote

Like I said, a timer means you have to hurry. The games are usually balanced so that you'll probably ever even take more than 6 minutes to beat a level, but there's still the lingering tension that you have to get to the end quickly or else you will die.

Shouldn't getting the higher score or a higher rank be incentive enough to complete it as fast as possible? That way there's the extra challenge for those who want it, and those who don't won't have to deal with it. Not that it's a major problem anyway, but I just find the inclusion of the 10 minute timer an annoying bug that exists only for the sake of it existing.

High score doesn't tie in to anything, though. It's sort of weird, but despite keeping score, none of the Sonic games seem to have any kind of leaderboard system or anything. I mean, I guess score meant something in later games once you start talking ranks and stuff, but there exist a lot of people out there who hate the idea of being constantly graded on performance like that, too, because it's "too stressful".

So we get rid of time limits and we get rid of score ranking and then what? Enemies are pretty stressful, let's get rid of them. If enemies cease to exist, then why do we need health? No more rings.

"Challenge for those who want it" always comes off as a way to accommodate lazy tendencies. Instead of dig in and beat something tough and feel accomplished, I can just take the lazy way out. So can a lot of people. It's like a built in-cheat code that has no penalties.

Sometimes you just have to man up.