[Mortimer]

Hi all

I've been toying with a design of a Sonic game for awhile, mostly 3D action with some RPG elements in the form of gaining experience and unlocking new abilities.

In this way I see three ways of doing things
1) customizable moveset somewhat akin to Emerl of Sonic Battle.
2) cycling through 'abilities' during the action.
3) Each special ability requires a combination of key presses.

Each I can see advantages and disadvantages, 1) leaves you with only the abilities you choose until you reach a point you can change them ... 2) I feel might be somewhat frustrating if a single control does multiple things, but the player may forget what they have selected, or miss select when cycling abilities. 3) In a sort of fighting game special moves way, not sure if that would work in a game based heavily on movement.

For 1) I had other thoughts like customizing even non-special moves ... for example, Sonic's second jump could be swapped between a insta-shield, double jump or bounce attack ... his spin dash could be replaced by the super peel out, etc.

Control wise I was thinking of working around a set number of keys.

Primary Controls
Movement = D-Pad, Arrow Keys, etc
Jump Action - Normally a jump followed by a special ability (fly, glide)
Attack Action - Attacks, inspired mainly on those of Sonic Battle.
Speed Action - Varies widely: For many = Dropping into a roll when running, powering up a spin dash while stationary, possibly a homing attack while in the air.
Power Action - A special ability often dependent on a gauge, Sonic examples: Speed Boost, Sonic Wind, Blue Tornado. With the gauge at full power I'd also like the ability to change to the 'Super Power' or have an alternate method of activating it ... this would include things like: Light Speed Attack or Chaos Control.

Secondary Controls
Whistle - Call 'pet' or alternatively a team mate for a 'team action'.
Pick Up/Put Down - occasional objects.
Camera - Adjust position.
Cycle Abilities/Inventory?

I feel like this is abit of a convoluted post, but I'd love some feedback and ideas for a good control scheme that feels natural to Sonic gameplay while allowing a number of actions to be performed.

[Kharen]

So, reading this, I immediately thought up the following process. Ability management works sort of like a Kingdom Hearts game. Going into the start menu allows you to assign abilities (passive and active) at the cost of Ability Points or whatever you want to use to ration things out. Like Kingdom Hearts, you can also use this to ration out gameplay-essential abilities (such as the Light Dash, Stomp, etc.), so the player only has them when you're ready for them to have them, and encourages replaying early levels for added exploration options.

Gameplay-wise, I kind of liked things in Sonic Heroes. (for simplicity's sake, I'll refer to gamepad controls) "A" is jump, double-tap "A" for Homing Attack. "B" is Spin-Dash, "B" in the air is a whirlwind/special attack #1. Hitting "L"/"R" would shift from a neutral-based to an action-based control set. "A" still jumps, but hitting "A" in the air becomes the insta-shield/shield ability. "B" becomes a punch/kick/short-range single attack. "B" in the air would be something like a stomp attack with a short shockwave radius upon impacting the ground. Hitting "L"/"R" again would transition (rotation-style) to a third control set based purely on speed. Rather than anything to assist in attacking, you have abilities to help travel the level quickly. "A" in the air would become a double jump, and B would become the boost. For keeping things mainly travel-based, I'd probably remove the semi-invincibility the boost gives, and have hitting an enemy knock you backwards, but without damaging you. That way, you don't have the "boost-to-win" mentality, without the boost becoming so dangerous that it's a liability. You can still damage enemies in speed-style, but it would only be from a normal jump attack, without the homing ability to aid you. Speed-runners with enough skill and practice can still kill enemies in speed-style, but a casual player would want to style-shift into a combat style.

Unlike Sonic Heroes, shifting into neutral or power-based styles does not give a reduction on running speed, and only changes the button controls to a new set. This should provide more than enough buttons and combinations to allow as many abilities as you would want to include, without requiring a complex multi-button input for special skills. Also, most controllers these days have much more than just an "A" and "B" button, so you should be able to use more buttons if you have more abilities you would want to include.

[Mortimer]

Certainly gave me some ideas Kharen, in a way I combined 1 and 2 (as in your heroes described style). I threw in a third C button specially for 'special moves' which can be customized in a Sonic Battle style way (you choose a neutral special, battle special, speed special and super special) and they will be activated with the relevant style your using. Super special moves would typically require a full power gauge while in any style. So, how does this look?

SONICS CONTROLS SCHEME

NEUTRAL STYLE
Spin Jump = A
Twin Spin/Insta-Shield = A while in the midair.
Spin = B while moving.
Spin Dash = Hold B while stationary.
Light Speed Dash B near a row of rings.
Homing Attack = B while in midair.

BATTLE STYLE
Spin Jump = A
Bound Stomp = A while in midair
Light Attack = B
Combo Attack = B B B in rapid succession.
Heavy Attack = B + Forward
Upper Attack = B + Backward
Dash Attack = B while running at high speed.
Air Attack = B while in midair.
Chase = B + Forward after heavy attack.
Pursuit Attack = B after performing a chase.
Light Speed Dash = B near a row of rings.

SPEED STYLE
Spin Jump = A
Double Jump/Trick Jump = A
Side Step = Tap Left or Right while moving at speed.
Peel Out or Super Peel Out = Hold B while stationary.
Somersault Slide = B while moving.
Light Speed Dash = B near a row of rings.

SPECIAL NEUTRAL MOVES
Sonic Wind = C while stationary or in midair.
Blue Tornado = C while in midair.

SPECIAL BATTLE MOVES
Sonic Drive = Hold C while stationary.
Sonic Meteor = C while in midair. (Or replaces Bound Stomp?)

SPECIAL SPEED MOVES
Speed Boost or Sonic Boom = C + Forward

SUPER MOVES
Chaos Control = Hold C for duration.
Light Speed Attack = Hold C while stationary or in midair.

PERMANENT CONTROLS
Cycle Style Left = L
Cycle Style Right = R

This post has been edited by Mortimer: 11 February 2012 - 06:54 PM

[Kharen]

Hmm... Looks like something fun to play. I have a couple very slight concerns about your battle style setup. First off, and this is just my own opinion, the idea on special attacks relying on a direction to execute (upper attack and heavy attack) seems like something to avoid. I have the PS2 version of Unleashed, and while I didn't quite dislike the night stages as much as most people here, I didn't like the directional controls very much. I would have been just fine if the movement was just a slower version of SA:DX, rather than double-tapping to dash. I died many, MANY times trying to slightly position Sonic on a small platform, only to have him sprint off to his death. Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that a directional based input for anything other than simple moving might be too difficult to implement well. You might have players try an attack only to run off in a bad direction, or vice versa, where a player realizes something dangerous is coming in the middle of combat, tries to get away, and Sonic just dumbly attacks and takes a face full of damage.

My other concern is that most people didn't like the night levels on Unleashed, and you kind of have a rather combat-intensive setup going on battle style. I mean, it's not exactly bad, but it seems overly detailed for something that's only supposed to be a portion of the game. It's been a while since I played Sonic Heroes, but I recall it having a rather simplistic battle system. Going into that much detail isn't bad, as long as you remember that when people see a Sonic game, they're going to expect a fair amount of speed. It's nice to have the choice, but remember not to go too overboard.

Other than that, it looks very good. It's easy enough to learn, provided you give directions in-level on how to do things like in the canon Sonic games. Personally, I kind of preferred having the in-level lessons over a full tutorial. How far along do you have this planned out, anyways? I mean, do you just have the basic concept thought up, or should we be expecting screenshots/concept art/whatever coming up in a couple months? I actually really want to play this now.

[Mortimer]

Unfortunately its still in the conception stage, I suppose I like to plan out most of the core elements and how a game controls I think certainly leans on that ... also I can possibly approach an engine to see if its capable of this.

[Kharen]

Ha, I know how that works. You ever mess with Zelda Classic? It has to be one of the simplest and easiest game making programs out there (you literally draw the level using tiles like you would draw in a paint program), and I've still spent over a year just planning things out beforehand.

I've never used it, but I would think using SonicGDK may be your best choice, other than coding everything from scratch. UDK can make just about anything you want, and the Sonic setup should provide a good starting point. I'd try it, but this pathetic excuse for a laptop wouldn't be able to manage it. I was just barely able to putter through Portal 2 before it overheated and shut itself down. I couldn't even go through it with the commentary on, it kept shutting down before I could finish the boss fight. Real shame, too.

[Mortimer]

Never tried Zelda Classic.

Sonic GDK definitely caught my eye and has the looks I want to go for, mostly large open levels based on those featured in the game, each interconnecting to form a set portrayal of Sonic's world. But like you I need a new machine as my current one wont really take that punishment.

Although I know 'gimmicks' are rarely a good thing I was considering giving different characters different playstyles ... Sonic can select between Neutral/Battle/Speed styles. My idea for Tails, based on his character and one of my own favorites was an inventory system ... he upgrades devices rather than learns new moves.

TAILS

Spin Jump = A
Fly/Swim = Tap A while in midair/water.
Spin = B while moving.
Spin Dash = Hold B while stationary.
Light Attack = B
Combo Attack = B B B in rapid succession.
Heavy Attack = B + Forward
Upper Attack = B + Backward
Dash Attack = Hold B while running at speed.
Air Attack = B while in midair.
Chase = B + Forward after Heavy Attack.
Pursuit Attack = B after performing a chase.

DEVICE MOVES
Tinker = C near enemy or machinery.
Bomb Attack = C
Scan = Hold C while stationary.
Big Hand = C
Energy Ball = C while stationary or in midair.
Deploy Bot = C while stationary or moving slowly.
Call Cyclone = C

PERMANENT MOVES
Cycle Items Left = L
Cycle Items Right = R

While Sonic had a speed gauge I'm still toying with what Tails would have as an alternative, was thinking possibly scavenging 'power cores' from defeated enemies to power up his devices.

Other ideas was having Knuckles have a 'fighting game' style combo system where performing combo attacks increases his fury gauge, a parallel to Sonic's speed gauge. In an odd idea inspired by Sonic Adventure I thought Amy's gameplay consisted of free animals, each type of animal gives a different boost to her abilities much like they evolve a Chao, but only temporarily (the animals follow her around like flickies follow Sonic in Sonic 3D for example).

[Kharen]

Have you ever played "Psycho Waluigi"? It has a gimmick where you can psychically grab enemies and either launch them at targets a la Kirby, or force them to use their attacks at other enemies. Something like that would be interesting for Tails, having the power cores taken from enemies give you identical attacks to what they use. Limit each power core to maybe something like 3 or 4 shots each, and it could be pretty fun to do.

I kind of miss how Knuckles was used in the Genesis games, where his unique abilities were used for exploration more than fighting. Amy always made me think of something like a cross between Tails's levels in Sonic Adventure and the Special Stages in Sonic Heroes. It'd have Sonic running through the level towards the goal, but instead of racing him there, you simply had to catch up to him. The difficult part would be that Amy still had her slow SA running speed, so you'd have to rely on skills like her higher hammer-jump to find shortcuts through the level.

With your Amy and Flickies idea, what about having them act like a very weak version of Super Tails's birds from S3+K? They'd have to be heavily weakened to not break the game, but you could have them automatically attack enemies while you ran around. The more enemies you defeated, the more Flickies you would have at your disposal at once. Could you just imagine arriving at a boss battle with a thousand or so little birds swarming Eggman like Pikmin while you hammered away at him?