[W.A.C.]

I decided that I want to start making fangames but I'm wondering what's my best option as a beginner who knows jack shit about programming. Originally, I was thinking Multimedia Fusion 2 but I'm really impressed with what can be made with Construct.





Any suggestions what I should use?

Edit-

Construct 2 is currently in beta and uses HTML5. Is HTML5 good for making fangames or fairly limiting?

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 14 August 2011 - 06:36 PM

[Delta]

For Sonic fangames, in terms of community and support, MMF2 is more or less the standard. The vast majority of fangames are done with that tool, and several Sonic engines have been made for it (most notably Sonic Worlds). Ask an MMF-related question, and it's likely that someone will have an answer. If you were to go with Construct or Game Maker, you'll have less of a choice in premade engines and less support from the community.

All that said, MMF is very much an old/aging beast of a platform with all kinds of legacy cruft and weird quirks. Construct is basically a modern and open-source take on these types of game creators, and doesn't suffer from some of MMF's more obscure problems. The caveat (besides slightly higher system requirements) is that Construct is still beta quality while MMF is quite well-established despite its problems.

Barring the release of Taxman's RSDK, the truly best way to make the best quality Sonic games is to either hack existing games, or write code. These last options are the most difficult, and also the most rewarding.

Honestly though, any artistic/creative vision you have is far more important than the tools you use. Having the best tools in the world at your disposal will do you no good if, for example, you don't have some solid game design ideas or just a concrete concept of what the game should be. These kinds of things are separate from whatever tools/methods you use.

...a long answer to a simple question, but there you go!

[Steven M]

Given my extensive use/reliance on MMF2 I'd probably be biased in giving my answer. Suffice it to say that the language or tools you choose don't really matter in the long run as long as your game is interesting.

[BlazeHedgehog]

I'd warn against GameMaker, at least. Every SAGE it's been my job to review a lot of SFGs for that-site-which-must-not-be-named, and every year I run in to anywhere from 3-5 games made in GM that just flat out don't work. If they don't just crash outright, I've also run in to a lot of GM games that work, but don't work properly.

For whatever reason, GameMaker just hates certain system configurations, and so far there have been a lot of theories as to what's causing it and why, and not a whole lot of proof. Nobody on the GameMaker development team seems to be much help, either, as it's a problem that's plagued GM for years and years and years.

[Azu]

Problem with GM is that a lot of people doesn't seem to know how to optimize.

[Namo]

I use MMF2 and I'm fine with it, albeit for making much simpler games. Though if you really need some confirmation on how good it is, well...

[Mercury]

As a kneejerk reaction I'd recommend Game Maker, because a) it's what I use and b) with the right plug-ins and know-how it can do some pretty incredible things. However, the points that others bring up about compatibility issues (which I've never encountered myself) and the larger MMF2 community are sound.

The bastard part of me wants to say use GM anyway, because the less games made with Sonic Worlds the better off we'll all be. Seriously, it's dire.

But the three big ones aren't your only option. Stencyl came out recently, and looks pretty solid (especially for beginners). There shouldn't be compatibility issues with it, either, seeing as how it exports to Flash.

[Candescence]

I prefer Construct Classic and Construct 2, personally. Though, Construct Classic can be rather buggy, its event system is nigh-superior to MMF2's - I have known many people who have used MMF2 first and then switched to Construct because it's so much better in that respect, and in a few others. Quite impressive for a project made by a few former MMF2 plugin makers who did it to learn more about C++.

Construct 2, at the moment, is indeed in beta with limited functionality, but with every new release, C2 is becoming closer to being even better than its predecessor, especially in stability. Once proper collisions are implemented, I will get started on a C2 version of Sonic Construct Worlds, myself, using the Custom Movement Behavior. HTML5's speed depends on the browser - right now, it's probably even better than Flash for web games (and will only get better!), and as a starting point for Construct 2's potential to be able to export games to virtually every platform under the sun, it's a good multi-platform start. And there will be a free version that isn't at all crippled in functionality, which won't raise the barrier of entry for fangame makers.

The main advantage MMF2 has, though, as previously stated, is that people have been using it longer, and there's been more support in the community. I plan on trying to change that, myself, to make it easier for fangame makers to have more options to choose from.

This post has been edited by Candescence: 15 August 2011 - 04:11 AM

[W.A.C.]

Thanks guys for the feedback so far.

BlazeHedgehog, on 14 August 2011 - 08:32 PM, said:

I'd warn against GameMaker, at least. Every SAGE it's been my job to review a lot of SFGs for that-site-which-must-not-be-named, and every year I run in to anywhere from 3-5 games made in GM that just flat out don't work. If they don't just crash outright, I've also run in to a lot of GM games that work, but don't work properly.

For whatever reason, GameMaker just hates certain system configurations, and so far there have been a lot of theories as to what's causing it and why, and not a whole lot of proof. Nobody on the GameMaker development team seems to be much help, either, as it's a problem that's plagued GM for years and years and years.

That's one of the main reasons why I'm the least interested in GM of the big three. Last thing I want is for a bunch of people to not be able to play what I make. <_<

Candescence, on 15 August 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

I prefer Construct Classic and Construct 2, personally. Though, Construct Classic can be rather buggy, its event system is nigh-superior to MMF2's - I have known many people who have used MMF2 first and then switched to Construct because it's so much better in that respect, and in a few others. Quite impressive for a project made by a few former MMF2 plugin makers who did it to learn more about C++.

Construct 2, at the moment, is indeed in beta with limited functionality, but with every new release, C2 is becoming closer to being even better than its predecessor, especially in stability. Once proper collisions are implemented, I will get started on a C2 version of Sonic Construct Worlds, myself, using the Custom Movement Behavior. HTML5's speed depends on the browser - right now, it's probably even better than Flash for web games (and will only get better!), and as a starting point for Construct 2's potential to be able to export games to virtually every platform under the sun, it's a good multi-platform start. And there will be a free version that isn't at all crippled in functionality, which won't raise the barrier of entry for fangame makers.

The main advantage MMF2 has, though, as previously stated, is that people have been using it longer, and there's been more support in the community. I plan on trying to change that, myself, to make it easier for fangame makers to have more options to choose from.

Since Construct 2 sounds like it'll probably become much better than its predecessor, would you recommend I start using it instead of Construct Classic? While I'm a bit weary on the concept of making a game with HTML5, the fact it'll allow people to use OpenGL in the future is extremely appealing to me. I'm not much of a fan on the concept of making a web game and HTML5 is obviously a lot more limited than DirectX and OpenGL. What do you consider the biggest limitations of Construct 2 compared to Construct Classic?

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 15 August 2011 - 06:11 AM

[Azu]

I don't think anyone has made a Sonic Engine for Stencyl or is planning too.

[Candescence]

Quote

Since Construct 2 sounds like it'll probably become much better than its predecessor, would you recommend I start using it instead of Construct Classic? While I'm a bit weary on the concept of making a game with HTML5, the fact it'll allow people to use OpenGL in the future is extremely appealing to me. I'm not much of a fan on the concept of making a web game and HTML5 is obviously a lot more limited than DirectX and OpenGL. What do you consider the biggest limitations of Construct 2 compared to Construct Classic?

You should start using Construct Classic to get a feel of things first, since that has a LOT more functionality at the moment, but you should also be aware of the differences between the two, such as how variables work.

HTML5 is really only less limited in terms of inability to do 3D and shader effects and stuff like like. This wouldn't be an issue if WebGL was supported by all browsers, but since Microsoft doesn't want to touch anything to do with OpenGL with a ten-foot-pole, thus leaving IE users out of the loop, that's not an option for C2 implementation for now. In short, HTML5 is only limited in what kind of graphical things it can do.

[Black Squirrel]

In a nutshell

STENCYL:

Lots of talk about it being the best thing since sliced bread, not much has been shown to prove it. I've yet to see any sort of fangame use Stencyl as its IDE of choice. Probably not good for fangames at this stage.

CONSTRUCT:

I've not seen Construct in action either, but the thing that's most noticable about those YouTube videos is that they've clearly got fantastic artists and musicans on board. No IDE will offer you these things, which suggests the people producing the content are highly skilled. Highly skilled programmers can work with anything, so it's not neccessarily a sign that Construct is "good", but I've not used it so I may be wrong. The fangaming community as a whole doesn't use it, so support would be limited. It's unexplored territory. Perhaps worth exploring, but perhaps not.

GAME MAKER:

Game Maker is widely used by "newer" fangamers. I have this theory that the reason for this is because people put in stupid search terms in google (I.e. they wanted to "make" a "game" and thus "game maker" popped up). Game Maker is reasonably powerful - it can do some impressive things, but it is flawed in many, many aspects. It's slow, it creates bloated applications, and as far as actual programming goes... well... you can throw pretty much anything at it and it'll probably function. And because it doesn't demand semicolons at the end of lines or the "==" operator, you get a community that can't really program games.

Or rather, if you then shifted over to something like C/C++ or Java, half your code probably wouldn't work, because Game Maker doesn't train you to write code that's "good", it trains you to write code that's "good enough".

Sonic fangames don't seem to use Game Maker. Mario fangames do. There'll be pros and cons as to why, but essentially, it depends on your game. I don't like the bloated nature of Game Maker - it doesn't "feel good" to work with, whether you're a programmer or a user. Yes you can get around some of this stuff, but nobody ever does. I don't personally recommend Game Maker on the basis I don't personally like running Game Maker games, but others don't care.

Mario fangames are relatively easy to make as opposed to Sonic ones, because a Sonic fangame needs fancy 360 degree engines. It's more of a struggle to do those in Game Maker. But it's also more of a struggle to get the same level of precision needed with Mario in MMF2.

MULTIMEDIA FUSION 2/THE GAMES FACTORY 2:

MMF2 and its watered down cousin TGF2 tend to be used by Sonic fangamers. Little actual programming involved, and a community that's existed for a good ten years or more thanks to previous similar Clickteam products, and so the knowledge is spread and yada yada Sonic Worlds. An MMF2 application can do amazing things, but Clickteam have never been ones to get with the times, so it's "2006 amazing" as opposed to "regularly being updated to keep it cutting edge, amazing". You have to dish out cash to produce games, which is the major downfall. People used to pirate the older stuff (I.e. MMFE, TGF and MMF) but the older stuff is hideously broken and built with Windows 98 in mind, so don't do that.




really it depends on what you're comfortable with. I think history pairs a lot of people with Clickteam products, but emerging technolgies should be much better. And of course your pros will tell you to ditch them all and learn C++ or whatever.


I've stressed for a while that the best way forward would be to hack the hell out of the old TGF, kill a lot of the built-in limiters, fix the numerous bugs and leave it at that, though the legal concerns that surround it and the willingness for technical experts to do such a thing are pretty big obstacles. If you wanted to make your hardcore stuff it wouldn't be appropriate, but I think it would be the best choice for beginners and those who just want to make games for fun, quickly. Because Game Maker will give you crap and MMF2 will hurt your pockets if you're only wanting to make something "simple".

and "simple" is good in this situation. Spending years on building a fangame from scratch that won't guarantee you income needs a certain frame of mind. That's why you don't see many completed Sonic platformers.

This post has been edited by Black Squirrel: 15 August 2011 - 11:37 AM

[Candescence]

Quote

Lots of talk about it being the best thing since sliced bread, not much has been shown to prove it. I've yet to see any sort of fangame use Stencyl as its IDE of choice. Probably not good for fangames at this stage.

And the event system is a massive turn-off. The Scratch system? Seriously? Also, Flash?

Quote

I've not seen Construct in action either, but the thing that's most noticable about those YouTube videos is that they've clearly got fantastic artists and musicans on board. No IDE will offer you these things, which suggests the people producing the content are highly skilled. Highly skilled programmers can work with anything, so it's not neccessarily a sign that Construct is "good", but I've not used it so I may be wrong. The fangaming community as a whole doesn't use it, so support would be limited. It's unexplored territory. Perhaps worth exploring, but perhaps not.

Construct Classic/Construct 2 are relatively new IDEs (and in C2's case, only in beta, its actual, proper release was literally just announced for August 22nd), so it's understandable why it isn't used much by fangamers. However, I have NEVER heard anyone say that they prefer MMF2's event system over Construct's, so that's a start.

Construct 2 has a TON of potential, much more than even its predecessor. The potential for exporting to any number of platforms, and HTML5 is rapidly improving in browsers to the point where it's only a matter of time until Flash becomes downright inferior for web games. Once C2's functionality improves, I don't doubt we'll be seeing HTML5 games looking as awesome as those videos.

[W.A.C.]

One important thing I failed to mention is that I'm not interested in making a traditional Sonic game. With this in mind, accurate physics to the Genesis games aren't even a goal. I'm much more interested in the overall potential of an engine and I hope what I learn from a Sonic related fangame project I have in mind can help me make more original, commercial games afterwords. That's why I'm the most interested in Construct 1 and 2.

This post has been edited by W.A.C.: 15 August 2011 - 04:57 PM

[Azu]

I like Construct over MMF2 because it handles object instances WAY better. You can have two different private variables (Alternative Values) for one object. Same thing for direction and starting animation. I'm not liking those princes either. I'll stick with Construct Classic or move on to actual coding.
It's more expensive than MMF2 once it's all said and done.

This post has been edited by Azu: 15 August 2011 - 06:56 PM