[Chimera]

jasonchrist, on 10 August 2011 - 06:13 PM, said:

PC2, on 10 August 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

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Everything that is bad in a Sonic game

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started a whole cycle

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the downward spiral

doesn't really provoke any insightful thought or lead to any reasonable discussion.

YES! Exactly, just like your post.

Ok, back to SA2 being a piece of shit.

Classy ;P

Meh, I can't really comment on this much. Sonic Adventure 2 was my first Sonic game at all, and I loved it at the time. Playing it again makes me feel nostalgic, and I just love it to death... The Sonic stages, that is (and Shadow, since it's the same thing). What I hate, though is the fact that it forces you into the other characters. That, and their play styles are kinda meh. I like Tails'/Eggman's stages slightly, however the hunter levels (Rouge and Knuckles) are horridly done in multiple aspects. Other than that, I really like the games for my own personal reasons, and if you guys don't like the game for your own reasons (didn't appeal to you, too thick-headed to like non-classic gameplay, just wasn't fun, etc) that's fine, though to be quite honest some of your reasons here are making me facepalm to the point I look like I'm blushing/have a sunburn in the shape of a hand. I mean, dark story ruining the franchise? The deapth of a story isn't a bad thing. It lacking "happy bright colorful adventure" isn't a bad thing. Eggman's a bad guy. He'll do bad things. As will every villain. Please get your head out of the clouds =.=

That's all I have to say on the subject. I'll expect 3 or more people debating on what I said, but whatever, nothing pleases you people

[KeebeeNacho]

....I really don't see why the Adventure games are apparently so terrible. They weren't exactly masterpieces, but they sure as frick didn't represent the fall of Sonic. They were good fun, and introduced new concepts. The real problem was the overuse of those concepts later on.

And if, God forbid, they overuse the Unleashed/Colors formula and the Sonic series spirals downhill again, that wouldn't necessarily make Unleashed and Colors bad games.

I think the games that mark Sonic's downfall were Sonic Heroes, Shadow, and Sonic 2006. Sonic Heroes was the first Sonic game that made me...errr....convert to Nintendo games. Shadow was terrible in every sense of the word. And Sonic 2006, well yeah.

No need to complain though, things have been looking up with the most recent games haven't they?

[muteKi]

I dunno, I see Sonic Heroes and I see retroactive fixes for just about everything that I hated about Unleashed.

On the other hand it has plenty of issues of its own.

[The KKM]

P3DR0, on 10 August 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Well, maybe you're right. But for me the thematic is what matters, I mean, the "real" world beeing shattered and a evil demon possessing people and bringing chaos for the cities (And those were based in real locations).

A mad man on a giant battleship with immense firepower attacking an ancient cultural and historical landmark.

A mad man attacking pristine locations and enslaving all it's enhiabitants inside robots to live and slowly die as live-betteries.

[Nora Kisaragi]

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Demons, dude. Motherfucking demons. People getting posessed. Also the world in SAdv3 is a fictitious world, there are no people on it, etcetera... Not that Unleashed's world is real, derp, but it's based on the real world.

Demons? Based on the Real World?

Your argument that Adventure 2 started this is shit, because that's exactly how you would describe the original beta iteration of Sonic the Hedgehog




Get outta town.

This post has been edited by Nora Kisaragi: 10 August 2011 - 11:38 PM

[SteelBrush]

Yes and those ideas never featured in a final game because they realised that it was the wrong direction for the series, until SA2. I had this exact conversation only a few years ago.

[Mad Echidna]

At the end of the day, it's a video game, and the only question that really matters is "is it fun". In my opinion, no. I found it incredibly frustrating how you were forced to play as a different character every level. At least in Sonic Adventure if you didn't really care that much about earning every emblem and the story and all that you could still blow through the whole game as only Sonic. I didn't feel like I missed much by not playing the other character's adventures. I got to interat with them, visited most every locale, and got to have the epic showdown with Eggman. What do I need all that other shit for?

Nora Kisaragi, on 10 August 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

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Demons, dude. Motherfucking demons. People getting posessed. Also the world in SAdv3 is a fictitious world, there are no people on it, etcetera... Not that Unleashed's world is real, derp, but it's based on the real world.

Demons? Based on the Real World?

Your argument that Adventure 2 started this is shit, because that's exactly how you would describe the original beta iteration of Sonic the Hedgehog




Get outta town.

Yeah, and? All you've demonstrated is that they had that idea originally, and rather than leaving a bad idea alone it was brought back years later.

[Nora Kisaragi]

SteelBrush, on 11 August 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

Yes and those ideas never featured in a final game because they realised that it was the wrong direction for the series, until SA2

Not entirely, mind you. Tails Sky Patrol featured the first human in a sonic game that was shipped since Eggman in the original game.

Also, I think you'll find the Sonic OVA released in 1996 introduced other humans and real world environments to the canon long before Adventure 1 ever did.

If you don't think the movie's canon or otherwise need more proof, even before that, in 1991 Sonic Patrol Car was released in which Sonic has to keep a city safe. Though that didn't add humans except Eggman, it would help to introduce the city-like environments we'd come to see from Sonic later. As for "demons and dark environments", we wouldn't see that until the endgame of Adventure 1 as noted.

The first "monster" post-Chaos IIRC was in Sonic Shuffle, not Adventure 2.

Of course, all this means is that SEGA has been playing with these ideas since the first inception of Sonic, those ideas were played around with in the lesser-known games (perhaps on purpose?) before becoming widespread with the adventure series. Maybe Yuji Naka felt the desire to put those ideas to action, maybe not. We'll never know.

This post has been edited by Nora Kisaragi: 11 August 2011 - 01:05 AM

[Sparks]

Nora Kisaragi, on 10 August 2011 - 11:38 PM, said:

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Demons, dude. Motherfucking demons. People getting posessed. Also the world in SAdv3 is a fictitious world, there are no people on it, etcetera... Not that Unleashed's world is real, derp, but it's based on the real world.

Demons? Based on the Real World?

Your argument that Adventure 2 started this is shit, because that's exactly how you would describe the original beta iteration of Sonic the Hedgehog




Get outta town.

Based on the Real World? Does this confirm that the thing to the left is a dildo?

[Tweaker]

Man, what the fuck ever. I liked SA2. I think the notion that it contains elements that ruined the franchise is funny, though, because unless you count the poor story continuation in Heroes/Shadow, the games that came after weren't even remotely similar. Heroes went out of its way to hark more back to the classic games; outside of Shadow, most Sonic games didn't even acknowledge SA2. Sonic 06 was just trying to be a copy of the original Adventure gameplay-wise and Unleashed/Colors have their own, ultimately refreshing formula that made the 3D games better.

SA2's fatal flaw is being compared to its superior predecessor. It's perfectly enjoyable on its own and honestly an interesting take on the 3D Sonic formula while still containing a lot of the elements that made the original Adventure enjoyable. I will admit that the music was far inferior, though; Jun Senoue's overuse of Buttrock GOA hasn't really made the series any better. I also didn't like that you absolutely had to play as all the character to progress, but after remembering that you had to do the same thing in the original Adventure to progress to the final story I was less apprehensive about it. It's nothing you hadn't dealt with already if you'd played the first game, after all.

Still, I think people bitch too much about really minor things like the number of characters in the game or what the story's like. If you don't enjoy the story in a game you can very easily skip over it or just ignore it; conversely, if you do enjoy the story it can enhance the game experience for you. Still, the story does not affect your ability to play the game. Heroes had the worst concept and execution for a storyline; that's why I just downloaded a full gamesave and played through the levels through the stage select. You can do the same with SA2 as well if you want. It's pretty easy to pick and choose what you actually experience when you play and I think that's important in discerning between objective issues with the game and matters of personal taste.

Now if you applied all of these complaints to Shadow the Hedgehog I might actually agree with you. That is the only game I have ever played that I have deemed objectively terrible. It also made me physically sick to play. Fuck that game.

[BlazeHedgehog]

P3DR0, on 10 August 2011 - 12:42 PM, said:

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Did you only read a synopsis online or something? Sonic Unleashed's plot is neither dark nor complicated. That's kind of where Sonic Colors' whole "saturday morning cartoon" storytelling style first cut its teeth. I mean, I guess if you take it at face value it sounds like it could be dark, but it's really, really not.

I'd actually finished all the games, Unleashed included. The story wasn't complicated, indeed. But it was kinda of dark, c'mon a giant demon at the center of the earth, the world breaking appart, etctera... I mean, it's dark. Not as SA2 or ShTH but is dark.

I think you're just interpreting it wrong. You keep saying "Demon", when no, by the game's standards it's just another monster. Monsters don't really have to be dark. There's plenty of attempts at humor in the game's storyline otherwise. Rewind a bit to examples that are actually dark:

Sonic Adventure 2 is about Shadow's revenge for Maria's wrongful death. The game also deals with concepts like terminal illnesses, an overbearing and generally inept military, and we literally see Professor Gerald moments before he is executed by a firing squad.

Shadow the Hedgehog revisits all of those themes again, while simultaneously letting up and allowing Shadow to wield and fire actual guns, with aliens that bleed when shot. Also, for however unintentionally hilarious it ended up being, Shadow even swears.

Sonic 2006 is about the death of Princess Elise's mother, who we never really see. Her death lead to her father's experiments with Solaris, which were meant to unlock the secrets of time travel in order to bring her back from the dead (the game kind of glosses over this, but when you step back and look, no, this is actually what the game was ultimately about). That failed experiment is what sealed "the flames of disaster" inside the Princess, and ends in the death (and eventual resurrection) of Sonic the Hedgehog. That's not even touching on a dystopian future where its implied thousands if not millions have died.

Sonic Unleashed, on the other hand, is about an evil monster that wants to end the world (dime a dozen, those are), who's "good" counter-part is a fluffy little goofball with a sweet tooth. Nobody dies, nothing is really destroyed. The worst that happens because of Dark Gaia is a few people get in to shitty moods when it's night time. Oh no, look out.

This post has been edited by BlazeHedgehog: 11 August 2011 - 05:05 AM

[ashthedragon]

I can't desagree more on this. For me, Sonic Adventure 2 is the best 3D Sonic game. It's storyline is perfectly constructed, in pair with SA's and the classic who where pretty serious too, although not as apparently dark ( ywah, a guy who uses animals as batteries for his robots and constructs a space colony to conquer the world? pretty cheerful...yeah.).
I think that too simply and cheerful storylines like colors and unleashed are the ones ruining the franchise, not the serious ones, who were there from the start of the franchise.

I agree that tails and eggman gameplay could be better, butt is not as bad as it seems to be.


Sonic 2006 was a great game. Only if it were finished, of course. It main fault is that its a fucking early beta,unfinished game. Also, Elise is not too good of a characther, but for the rest, it is pretty awesome.

[DimensionWarped]

Tweaker, on 11 August 2011 - 03:28 AM, said:

SA2's fatal flaw is being compared to its superior predecessor. It's perfectly enjoyable on its own and honestly an interesting take on the 3D Sonic formula while still containing a lot of the elements that made the original Adventure enjoyable. I will admit that the music was far inferior, though; Jun Senoue's overuse of Buttrock GOA hasn't really made the series any better. I also didn't like that you absolutely had to play as all the character to progress, but after remembering that you had to do the same thing in the original Adventure to progress to the final story I was less apprehensive about it. It's nothing you hadn't dealt with already if you'd played the first game, after all.

I don't even really think being compared to SA is SA2's problem. Probably half the fanbase at the time actually preferred SA2 to SA in spite of everything that SA did better just because SA2 had a certain focus on gameplay that gave it more longevity as a game than SA. The only thing that SA really definitively has over SA2 is a visual style that is more capable of pleasing the fan base. And the reason SA has superior music to SA2 is largely because it recycled almost half of its music. Most of the original tracks aren't any better than they stuff you hear in SA2... until you start examining the awful Knuckles' stages raps.

[Skyler]

Nora Kisaragi, on 11 August 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

Tails Sky Patrol featured the first human in a sonic game that was shipped since Eggman in the original game.

So? She was a witch, and a cartoony one. Witches are nothing like real people, plus she was nothing like the anime-desu humans in SA1&2 or uber-realistic ones in 06.

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Also, I think you'll find the Sonic OVA released in 1996 introduced other humans and real world environments to the canon long before Adventure 1 ever did.

You're really pairing the OVA together with the main series games? Are you serious, bro?

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If you don't think the movie's canon or otherwise need more proof, even before that, in 1991 Sonic Patrol Car was released in which Sonic has to keep a city safe. Though that didn't add humans except Eggman, it would help to introduce the city-like environments we'd come to see from Sonic later.

See above, only replace "OVA" with "obscure Japanese kiddy ride nobody remembers."

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The first "monster" post-Chaos IIRC was in Sonic Shuffle, not Adventure 2.

Void was more of a joke than a monster.


...


As for SA2, I enjoyed it when I was little. Though these days I find the shooting stages unbearable, and the hunting stages can frustrate me sometimes. Sonic and Shadow's stages, while very linear, are still enjoyable. I would prefer level design more akin to SA1 and 06, though.

This post has been edited by Skyler: 11 August 2011 - 07:36 AM

[Nora Kisaragi]

Skyler, on 11 August 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

You're really pairing the OVA together with the main series games? Are you serious, bro?

Are you saying a franchise's canon cannot be expanded upon in media other than videogames?
what the fuck?

I mean, the general public doesnt see Sonic OVA as canon due to inconsistencies with the modern-day sonic, but Sega could expand on canon without using games if they wanted to. Just because it's not a game, doesn't mean it's not canon, you would be wise not to forget that.

Oh, FYI, Sonic OVA was paired together with Sonic CD's universe.

Skyler, on 11 August 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

See above, only replace "OVA" with "obscure Japanese kiddy ride nobody remembers."

Four things:
1.) Sonic is a japanese franchise aimed at children. Don't forget that. SEGA reminds us all the time Sonic's target audience is kids.
2.) Games like Patrol Car, Eraser, Cosmo Fighter, etc. are no exceptions to #1.
3.) Just because games like Patrol Car are obscure doesn't mean they're not canon, bro. You're in no position to judge whether a game is canon.
4.) Who the fuck cares if it's japanese? Are you racist or something? Are you forgetting a certain Yuji Naka?

Skyler, on 11 August 2011 - 07:32 AM, said:

Void was more of a joke than a monster.

Irrelevant. Void was a monster/demon/whatever the hell you want to call it, joke or not.


...

All of that being said, I loved Sonic Adventure 2 more than 1. Oh the times of chao raising with my siblings, good times... I also liked Shadow/Secret Rings/Heroes/06/Riders, pretty much all sonic games on the gamecube and some modern-day ones.


EDIT: While I'm at it, it's also worth noting that Patrol Car is the first Sonic game in his entire history where the Hedgehog had a voice

This post has been edited by Nora Kisaragi: 11 August 2011 - 08:39 AM