[P3DR0]

Well, maybe you're right. But for me the thematic is what matters, I mean, the "real" world beeing shattered and a evil demon possessing people and bringing chaos for the cities (And those were based in real locations).

[TimmiT]

P3DR0, on 10 August 2011 - 01:14 PM, said:

Well, maybe you're right. But for me the thematic is what matters, I mean, the "real" world beeing shattered and a evil demon possessing people and bringing chaos for the cities (And those were based in real locations).

Also, some "cute" flying thing called Chip who got that name because he likes ice cream. And a professor that likes sandwiches.
And Eggman is back to being silly.

I mean.

This post has been edited by TimmiT: 10 August 2011 - 01:45 PM

[Mr. Mash]

SA2 came out when I was 10 and I thought it was amazing. The giant lizard in space thing totally captured me, so I can say first hand that that sort of thing really does appeal to 10 year old boys.
Now though, I don't like that there's so few Sonic levels, and the cut scenes seem pretty lame. I don't think there should be more games like it, or pushed even further in that direction like '06.

[Hybrid Project Alpha]

SA2 was only the beginning of the downward spiral because nothing could top it

[Metal Knuckles]

Exactly what I'm saying. Just because the game introduced all these game mechanics that made future Sonic titles all shit doesn't make this game at all shit. That'd be like saying Sonic Adventure was horrible because it introduced 3D platforming, the horrendous failure of which has contributed to the sucking of many Sonic games. Mind you, I'm not including 3D Blast in that example because it did suck substantial ass.

[TheKazeblade]

Hybrid Project Alpha, on 10 August 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

SA2 was only the beginning of the downward spiral because nothing could top it

I wouldn't go that far. It was much more polished than SA1, but SA1's level design was much bigger, with the opportunity to explore, you had control of what character you wanted to play as, and the story didn't take itself quite as seriously. It had the makings of a great 3D Sonic, it really did. But instead of tweaking the things that didn't work as well and keep that which did, the steered the franchise into a completely new direction for SA2.

SA2 did have its place. I loved the trick system, the grinding was actually well implemented (really the only game in the series that can claim this) and Sonic's animations were very cool; I loved the little touches, like him doing a misty-flip when jumping out of a roll, etc. Additionally, it was the only game that did Shadow well either. But the levels were too linear, there's no reason to give each character their own story without being lumped into Hero or Dark. It did start mark the end of quality Sonic games, as well as serving as but we need to remember that it was Heroes that was the first legitimate mis-step the franchise took in the core series.

We can't really blame the game for the downward spiral of the Sonic franchise. The issue lay with the aspects of the game Sonic Team chose to develop further and emphasize. Premium example is grinding. It was good in SA2, added a new dynamic, but most importantly, it was by and large supplementary, and with the exception of the last levels of Sonic/Shadow, were almost completely unrequired for finishing the game. People liked grinding, so Sonic Team took it, changed it, made it a more integral part of the core game.

It's this mentality of emphasizing aspects that always should have been supplementary and thrusting them to the forefront of gameplay that caused the downfall of the franchise, not SA2.

I can back up this claim, because you can take pretty much any of the new game mechanics people complain about nowadays and replace my above example with them.

•Grinding
•Homing Attack
•Plot
•Additional Playable Characters
•Boost (kinda sorta)


And, in this same mentality,
•SHADOW.

This post has been edited by TheKazeblade: 10 August 2011 - 02:32 PM

[SpeedStarTMQ]

I prefer Sonic Adventure 2 to Adventure, purely because the gameplay is better, the controls are more refined, and the story, though considered darker than usual, is actually one great big homage to science fiction. It was good to have a Sonic game which departed from the norm, and it was brought back to the ground heavily in Heroes. It didn't depart in such a way where it was unrecognisable, you stil got to play in some familiar looking zones, and you got Green Hill as an added bonus. It's not the best Sonic game ever, but it's still good, and I don't really have nostalgia goggles on, purely because I got the game Christmas 2003, and have played it regulary (albeit less recently) since.

Also, I'm not aware of these 'invisible walls', minus the ones in San Fran.

Sonic Adventure 2 has some minor camera issues, and is often too unforgiving in terms of difficulty for it's own good, but it's a good game. The graphics were great for the time, the voice acting is pretty typical for the Sonic games of the time, the plot is a pretty decent one-off, Robotnik is a real bad guy even if he's overthrown at the end, and the game gave the story and characters the depth which they desperately needed (though this has been lessened recently by not developing it much further). on top of this, the controls are tight, it doesn't have a stupid fishing level, it was awesome music, and the most developed multiplayer of a 3D Sonic game, or any Sonic game to date.

The downfall of Sonic started with Shadow The Hedgehog, hit rock bottom with the very next game Sonic 2006, and rose back up again from Secret Rings, finally ending at Sonic Colours, where they realised they didn't have to add a crappy new gimmick or playable character every single game. All in all, the 4 years of hardship the series had was incredibly low, but even then it had it's own shining games- the Rush and Rivals games being at the very core of that.

This post has been edited by SpeedStarTMQ: 10 August 2011 - 03:32 PM

[TimmiT]

Hybrid Project Alpha, on 10 August 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

SA2 was only the beginning of the downward spiral because nothing could top it

Just because one piece of shit doesn't stink as bad as the other pieces of shit doesn't mean it's good.
I really liked the Sonic/Shadow levels because I happen to like speedrunning, but all the other characters are just boring.
The Tails/Eggman mech levels had potential, but the level design and gameplay mechanics are bland. I recently played it again and all you did was simply walk around and hold the lock-on button so you can shoot missiles at the enemies.
The Knuckles stages were tolerable in SA1, but they made it shit by making sure you could only look for one emerald piece at a time in SA2. Have fun spending an hour looking for those emerald pieces in Meteor Herd.

This post has been edited by TimmiT: 10 August 2011 - 04:42 PM

[Vantoggle]

No matter how many weeds one identifies and plucks, you'll never repair anything until you be rid of the roots. Darker tone, multiple characters, - decisions associated with brand name whose staff has been seemingly replaced several times over the years.

Efficient production schedules and motivated directors with appropriate experience would eliminate any Werehogs from reaching the pipeline. Fans generally don't have an understanding of how to make games or what would best suit a specific team of programmers and artists, and yet the new marketing campaign is surrounded around the idea as if they do.
One's “favorite era of games” was crafted by a completely different studio than the one that exists today. So why should today's Sonic Team be treated as if they should “return” to something that was the most successful at a different time, with a different team, under different politics, and possibly from a different country?Personally, I believe "playing things safe" is just as detrimental if not worse than any failed experiment in this industry.

The franchise has been so many different things over the years that no gamer can agree what a good Sonic game is.

Personally, I'd like to see Sonic Team take a break from Sonic games, possibly get a name change. Concentrate on original titles about werewolves, and Knights, and third person shooters without cramming a Blue hedgehog in it (though admittedly this brings comedic effect in a B movie sense).

Making fans wait doesn't make them turn in to vapor and spamming releases doesn't boost reputation. If titles like Toy Story 3, Duke Nukem Forever, and Smash bro's Brawl prove anything, it's that absence makes the heart grow fonder where profit is concerned.

[Clutch]

TV Tropes has something to describe the sort of phenomenon people are getting at here.

Frankly considering Sonic Adventure 2 was the last 3D Sonic game to have both controls that weren't a mess and level design that wasn't made up of boost corridors I'm certainly not going to hate it.

This post has been edited by Clutch: 10 August 2011 - 05:01 PM

[PC2]

Quote

Everything that is bad in a Sonic game

Quote

started a whole cycle

Quote

the downward spiral

Oh look, it's this thread again.

This regurgitated "downward spiral" BS is completely subjective and someone makes this thread every time a new Sonic game comes out. In fact, most people don't even make the thread anymore, because it doesn't need one - it's pretty much a generally accepted opinion by most people who dislike the 3D Sonic games. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen this exact same claim summed up in just a few short and sweet sentences. Identifying what you don't like about the games is one thing, making blanket statements like "___ ruined the franchise!" or "___ was the last good game!" is just flamebait that doesn't really provoke any insightful thought or lead to any reasonable discussion.

[jasonchrist]

PC2, on 10 August 2011 - 06:08 PM, said:

Quote

Everything that is bad in a Sonic game

Quote

started a whole cycle

Quote

the downward spiral

doesn't really provoke any insightful thought or lead to any reasonable discussion.

YES! Exactly, just like your post.

Ok, back to SA2 being a piece of shit. While the music is total balls, I DO think that Pyramid Cave and Lost Colony are REALLY awesome tracks. Just to say something nice about the game.

[David The Lurker]

Sonic Adventure 2 was the beginning of the end.

It is easy to bring up the numerous personal changes that Sonic Team has gone through over the years. Heck, there were staff changes right after the first game. Ohshima was only involved in two of the classic games, the original and Sonic CD. Naka and Yasuhara were involved in all the main Mega Drive titles, but after that his work on the series was only with spin-offs of the classic era. Ohshima and Naka reunited for Adventure, but their reunion was preceded with Nights and Burning Rangers, and Sonic Adventure was just as much Iizuka's baby as it was Naka and Ohshima's, and with the latter's departure and Naka becoming far more interested in other non-Sonic projects, the franchise became Iizuka's. And that is why Sonic Adventure 2 is so distinct from the first Adventure, and in turn the original games.

Let it be clear that, as someone who grew up on the classic series, the original Adventure to me seems like a game that wanted to try new things, but maintain some sense of continuity, both stylistically and plot-wise. I know everyone loves to talk about how so much of the game was focused on characters that weren't Sonic the Hedgehog, but they were trying new things, and at the end of the day, the game was focused on Sonic. "Tails" gameplay was very much in line with Sonic's, as was Knuckles, they just had different goals. You could even say that Knuckles' levels were just an expansion of the inherit urge for exploration that made up the classic levels. Amy was a short diversion as was E-102, and Big...well, take one look at the front page and you'll know what I think of Big the Cat.

The problem with Sonic Adventure is that they took the parts that didn't necessarily work, built a game around them, and somehow made it worse. Say all you want about how the controls are tighter, the levels were far more linear. Most of Sonic's levels felt like repeats of Speed Highway, as did Shadow's. Speed Highway was cool because it wasn't repeated over and over again. City Escape, Radical Highway, Sky Rail...heck, even the space levels felt the same, just on a smaller field you could run/grind on. The treasure hunting segments and the shooting segments were made mandatory, which took away the novelty of them, and the tightened controls and changed mechanics somehow made them more a chore than fun to play. When E-102 ran through, you felt like you were sliding about, things were fast, and you had a time limit so you still had the echos of how things worked in the past. With "Tails" and Eggman in Adventure 2, it felt like forever to make them move, forever to shoot something, and forever to finish the level. Funny how that works out.

Then when you look at the art direction, you're given a game that wants to be as real as possible. Even though the original Adventure used places inspired by real life, and even went as far as using textures created from pictures they took from South America, it still had a surreal quality to it. The closest Sonic Adventure 2 got to that was Pumpkin Hill. It wouldn't be until...well, Colors until things started to change that way (handhelds excluded). The very identity of the Sonic franchise changed when they altered the art direction.

And the story...there's nothing wrong with a few dark shades. Unleashed did it well, because even though there were demons and the Earth breaking apart and all that, it was still something that wasn't dark and dreary. Everything associated with Shadow, on the other hand, was. Even when he first showed up, there was nothing fun about it. And the ending scenes with Eggman's grandfather talking...yeah. I think it went slightly further than it should, especially since it was balanced out. Maybe if more of the game had felt fun, the ending set pieces would have been fine. After all, Perfect Chaos had to have killed a few people, and yet that didn't bother me as much as Gerald Robotnik just talking about it.

So yes, while Sonic Adventure 2 wasn't the worst Sonic game, it certainly did start the downfall of the franchise.

but he is still cool and blue like the planet

[DimensionWarped]

I still don't see why people are always consistently down on multiple characters. Personally I thought it always helped Sonic 3K and the Advance series.

[Dr. Ed]

DimensionWarped, on 10 August 2011 - 06:20 PM, said:

I still don't see why people are always consistently down on multiple characters. Personally I thought it always helped Sonic 3K and the Advance series.

I completely agree.

I really don't see what's so bad about having extra characters. The problem you have with them in SA1 SA2 and STH06 is how they're implemented. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with having other playable characters- in fact if done correctly it could even save the franchise.

Think about this... Why do you think Sega felt like they had to add the werehog in unleashed? because a full game of nothing but day stages (if they made enough to compensate for the lack night stages) would be too much of a (pretty)good thing. It would just be too much. At least with a game that moves at that speed the whole way through.

If they could come up with and refine a play style that didn't suck for aditional characters it would add depth to the whole game experience. Whether it's making different stages for knuckles and tails in their own format or making some kind of addition to the regular sonic levels that gives the other characters their own advantage like in S3K. either way it's obvious that until recently Sega hasn't even discovered a way(or realized what they had in the classic games) to make sonic work on modern systems so I don't see additional characters being fun until they put as much work into them as they did into the unleashed/colors style of gameplay... and hire some people who are willing to tell them when their ideas suck.

SA2 is most definitely not everything that is bad in a sonic game. It succeded in many areas. It's just that when Sega tried to duplicate these things in other games they failed miserably. I'll agree that it was too linear and that the treasure hunting and shooting stages weren't for everyone and could hardly be called sonic game gameplay, but a lot of us still enjoyed them. I don't think SA2 started a downward spiral. Sega was already heading in the SHTH/STH06 direction and it didn't really have that much to do with SA2. (ok maybe you can blame it for SHTH) But the fact remains that no matter what they were still going to be making lazy unfinished products reguardless of SA2.

EDIT: and it's not SA2's fault that the series fell into the ridiculous final boss fad. It's pretty common in video games ya know.

This post has been edited by Dr. Ed: 10 August 2011 - 06:57 PM