[Volpino]

DimensionWarped, on 27 August 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

And who gives a flying rat's ass if some douchebag has thought of the idea of 'sonic fused with tails' before. That isn't what makes this interesting, it's the fact that you can pick up and discard their functionality without needing to constantly be mindful of them.

The point I was trying to make was that it looks juvenile. There's a difference in not being original, and doing something on the level of a 12 year old. It looks like a joke and I really fail to see why this is needed besides to satisfy some fanboy fantasy bullshit (Of which I have a very low opinion), I cannot respect this in any way. Of all the ways you can give Sonic a gliding power, or a flying power, you give him a fusion with Tails or Knuckles.

Or maybe I should just ask the question "Why the hell don'[t you just use a fucking jetpack instead of merging Sonic and Tails? What is being accomplished except to shirk drawing extra sprites?" Is it just a reference to the previous game? If so, I'd be pretty pissed off if I played the other game and found out some features were actually given a downgrade, because to my understanding, the last game had the two as fully playable, taking advantage of their abilities whenever you wanted and not just when a monitor was near.

[DimensionWarped]

Stuff like that is only fanboy fantasy bullshit if you approach it that way. Any sort of fanboy fantasy bullshit is like that. I for one just found it somewhat funny and amusing that he chose to do it that way instead of just finding a way to slap random powers onto Sonic.

And whooo, Jetpack Sonic, that's exciting and unique. You say why, I say why not. It makes no difference in any kind of way that actually matters... well, except to people who get all bent out of shape over little things that they perceive as critical for some reason.

[Volpino]

DimensionWarped, on 27 August 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

Stuff like that is only fanboy fantasy bullshit if you approach it that way. Any sort of fanboy fantasy bullshit is like that. I for one just found it somewhat funny and amusing that he chose to do it that way instead of just finding a way to slap random powers onto Sonic.

And whooo, Jetpack Sonic, that's exciting and unique. You say why, I say why not. It makes no difference in any kind of way that actually matters... well, except to people who get all bent out of shape over little things that they perceive as critical for some reason.

I don't think you understand the perspective we're looking at it from. At least a jetpack looks better on Sonic than giving him two tails.

Your avatar tells me you appreciate an extreme sense of the ridiculous so I can understand you finding it amusing, and if it's just meant to be a sense of humor, it's probably more excusable but when I first saw this on YouTube, my first thought was that some 12 year old kid was trying to make what they considered a "super cool" idea. I honestly cannot look at this and take it seriously as a project, I'm surprised it's as well-received as it is considering I expected people to point out how ludicrous it looks, but maybe I give Sonic fans too much credit.

[dsrb]

People might take you more seriously if you didn't express your conceited overreaction in such a juvenile and low-brow way.

Hold the dumb insults; just provide your opinion and move on.

This post has been edited by dsrb: 27 August 2011 - 08:01 AM

[Steven M]

Hez, on 26 August 2011 - 12:29 PM, said:

As for the tails and knuckles monitors not making sense, who gives a fuck? Again, we're talking about an anthropomorphic hedgehog smashing television monitors to get golden rings. Seriously? Who are you to judge getting your friends powers from monitors is stupid.

The idea's dumb on its own but the justification you're using here marks thin ice for the project. On the one hand - "it's a fantasy environment therefore different things can happen to shake up the gameplay" - is acceptable enough and sometimes people need to relax and see how this particular experiment turns out, since it's taken in good faith that the creator either knows what they're doing or can rely on people to help him out.

On the other hand - "it's a fantasy environment therefore I can do whatever I want NO YOU'RE STUPID" - there's the danger of a very ugly attitude creeping in that is pretty much an enabler for the creator to channel their "creativity" or "inspiration" in the silliest manner possible. It's dangerous because that attitude betrays contempt or a deliberate lack of understanding for the original concept in favor of something shallow and insubstantial on the creator's part; and because an attitude like this is more than amply supported by sycophants who won't constructively support the creator's vision.

Plus, 'it's unrealistic so anything goes'? Seriously? I guess you can't complain about the physics in DIMPS Sonic anymore then because IT'S A VIDEOGAME YOU GUYS STOP COMPLAINING

[DimensionWarped]

No StevenM, that's a ridiculous sentiment for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that you are comparing a relatively minor feature that simply allows certain abilities to be accessed at certain times to the fundamental way the game plays. No one bitches about Knuckles Chaotix having those boxes that change your character for a while despite them making no more or less sense than this and having the exact same kind of impact on what really matters (how the game is played).

As for this bit about channeling creativity in the silliest manner possible, so what? A little silliness never hurt anything. One of the best completed fangames I personally played in recent memory was Eggman Hates Furries, and it was far more audacious in channeling silliness than this could ever be. This is so blatantly pedestrian compared to that. If any sort of diversion from the 'original concept' (more like the original concept as you see it) of the games is a problem is somehow seen as contempt towards the original games, you are placing way too much constraint on people to ever make a game that is anything different than another Sonic 3 clone.

[jasonchrist]

Gotta say, I too am not a fan of the powerups for the simple fact that they make Sonic look like a complete and utter spastic, especially in Tails mode. It's like something some sick shithead on deviantart who fantasizes about Sonic and Tails fucking would come up with. As a big fan of Classic 1 I know you're better than that, Hez.

Why not just make morph monitors? Where Sonic can transform into Knuckles or Tails upon contact. Or pull a Sonic 2 Heroes and have your comrades with you for the life of the power up?

[DimensionWarped]

I do agree that the sprites at least could use some work, but I thought that much was implied in the original post when he said that he wasn't even sure he wanted to do a Classic sequel or not.

[Black Squirrel]

Tails/Knuckles monitors are fine. Keep them in.

Just change the music.

[Covarr]

Honestly, I'd prefer tails/knuckles monitors that actually swap in tails or knuckles for a limited period of time, rather than a palette swap of Sonic. I know, there's no logical reason for them to show up and disappear just as suddenly, but it'd certainly look better than Red Sonic.

[Sparks]

Volpino, on 27 August 2011 - 12:32 AM, said:

I agree with W.A.C, it looks retarded. It reminds me of some fanfiction some stupid 12 year old would come up with, it looks like some idea a preteen would incorporate in a fucking GameMaker D&D game, or some tripe made in MMF2. There's no style about it, it's generic, not in the sense that it's been done before but in the sense that every fanboy has probably thought of it. (And anyone who's watched DBZ for any length of time probably has.) I'd expect an adult who's been involved in several game-related projects to have more of a sense of style and flow, more of a respect for the content he's working with, and the god damn sense to know that putting two tails on Sonic makes the sprite look cluttered and ridiculous.

The only reason those monitors exist is because Hez, instead of trying to make a game that could build further on Sonic's arsenal of abilities, wants to find a way to shoehorn in Tails and Knuckles without having to program them, which is kind of lazy. I don't think he's lazy because he doesn't want to go through the effort, but because all he did was shoehorn the characters' abilities in there instead of come up with his own.

Triple Trouble is a good example of how Sonic got power-ups related to mobility, he got machines from a power-up, which was more original than just growing two tails to fly.

While I like fan content to be somewhat faithful to the logic of that universe, I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense, I'm arguing that it looks stupid and reminds me of some immature kid learning to use MMF or GameMaker.

And just for your information, it isn't original either.

There is so many things wrong with this post. If you're trying to give decent criticism, you really don't need to do it with insults like retarded or comparing it to fan fictions. You sound unprofessional and loose all credibility. I agree the monitors and their result aren't the best idea ever, but there really ways better ways to word your criticism.

And Classic 1 already had Tails and Knuckles programmed in, so Hez is anything but lazy. :/ Classic 1 was made in Multimedia Fusion 2.0 as well if I recall.

[DimensionWarped]

Hez: If placating the masses is important to you, here's my suggestion:

1. Keep the monitors, and even keep the fact that they are aspects of Tails and Knuckles through use of the icons.
2. Replace the sprite swaps on Sonic with a couple additional animations that simply make mechanical looking attachments to Sonic that make the abilities sensible. Have him pull out some kind of hang glider when he uses the Knuckles glide ability, give him Knuckles gloves when he uses the climbing ability, and have him get some kind of helicopter attachment when he does Tails flight.

That way mechanically it would be the same, but there would be one less reason for people to act like this triviality is a grievous offense.

[Steven M]

DimensionWarped, on 27 August 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

No one bitches about Knuckles Chaotix having those boxes that change your character for a while despite them making no more or less sense than this and having the exact same kind of impact on what really matters (how the game is played).

No-one bitched about it because the presentation and execution of the idea didn't seem awkward as hell. You and Vulpino already brought up the idea of Jetpack Sonic (a throwback to the Game Gear Sonic games where they'd try out different things like spring shoes and hang-gliders) and that doesn't seem so bad. Maybe it's not "whoop de doo unique" but then Dragonball/DeviantART bullshit isn't unique either, so why bring that rebuttal up at all?

Quote

As for this bit about channeling creativity in the silliest manner possible, so what? A little silliness never hurt anything. One of the best completed fangames I personally played in recent memory was Eggman Hates Furries, and it was far more audacious in channeling silliness than this could ever be. This is so blatantly pedestrian compared to that. If any sort of diversion from the 'original concept' (more like the original concept as you see it) of the games is a problem is somehow seen as contempt towards the original games, you are placing way too much constraint on people to ever make a game that is anything different than another Sonic 3 clone.

It didn't hurt that Eggman Hates Furries was a good game while still being different in execution. I'm not asking for a Sonic 3 clone, I'm asking for a game that, if it wants to shake things up a bit, doesn't rely on "oh well it's a game about a blue hedgehog who collects rings, how dare you argue about the absurdity of Sonitails" to make a point. That screams insecurity.

Maybe what I'm getting at is the presentation and attitude of the concept. Sonic has a hang-glider or jetpack to fly around? Ok. Sonic has knuckle-gloves to climb walls, burrow through the ground and glide? Alright, I'll buy it, I'd probably question the absence of Knuckles to do the same job but whatever. Sonic hits a monitor and switches out with Knuckles or Tails? Interesting, you could tamper with the idea of a fixed or dynamic time limit. Sonic does the fusion dance with Knuckles or Tails? It doesn't change the gameplay idea but it does look fucking awesome if you're like 12 years old dumb - and on a forum/community well known for arguing about petty visual details you can't bring up the "stop complaining about minor things" card.

Sonic with 'mechanical enhancements'? Here's an idea - make Metal Sonic Classic.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I would actually greatly appreciate it if Hez or someone made Metal Sonic Classic.

This post has been edited by Steven M: 27 August 2011 - 02:19 PM

[Flare]

Well today I learnt that the designers of Kirby are dumb fan boy 12 year olds.

In any case, I'd work on the sprites more for presentation sake - though the video was obviously just a demonstration - and keep somewhat a sense of humour over this power up, though you did say it was optional, and it wasn't like I expected "Hey Shadow I can only stop Eggman if we combine powers! yeah!". It is a fan game, the best chance to do things we would not see in the official series.

[DimensionWarped]

Steven M, on 27 August 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

DimensionWarped, on 27 August 2011 - 11:45 AM, said:

No one bitches about Knuckles Chaotix having those boxes that change your character for a while despite them making no more or less sense than this and having the exact same kind of impact on what really matters (how the game is played).

No-one bitched about it because the presentation and execution of the idea didn't seem awkward as hell. You and Vulpino already brought up the idea of Jetpack Sonic (a throwback to the Game Gear Sonic games where they'd try out different things like spring shoes and hang-gliders) and that doesn't seem so bad. Maybe it's not "whoop de doo unique" but then Dragonball/DeviantART bullshit isn't unique either, so why bring that rebuttal up at all?

Quote

As for this bit about channeling creativity in the silliest manner possible, so what? A little silliness never hurt anything. One of the best completed fangames I personally played in recent memory was Eggman Hates Furries, and it was far more audacious in channeling silliness than this could ever be. This is so blatantly pedestrian compared to that. If any sort of diversion from the 'original concept' (more like the original concept as you see it) of the games is a problem is somehow seen as contempt towards the original games, you are placing way too much constraint on people to ever make a game that is anything different than another Sonic 3 clone.

It didn't hurt that Eggman Hates Furries was a good game while still being different in execution. I'm not asking for a Sonic 3 clone, I'm asking for a game that, if it wants to shake things up a bit, doesn't rely on "oh well it's a game about a blue hedgehog who collects rings, how dare you argue about the absurdity of Sonitails" to make a point. That screams insecurity.

Maybe what I'm getting at is the presentation and attitude of the concept. Sonic has a hang-glider or jetpack to fly around? Ok. Sonic has knuckle-gloves to climb walls, burrow through the ground and glide? Alright, I'll buy it, I'd probably question the absence of Knuckles to do the same job but whatever. Sonic hits a monitor and switches out with Knuckles or Tails? Interesting, you could tamper with the idea of a fixed or dynamic time limit. Sonic does the fusion dance with Knuckles or Tails? It doesn't change the gameplay idea but it does look fucking awesome if you're like 12 years old dumb - and on a forum/community well known for arguing about petty visual details you can't bring up the "stop complaining about minor things" card.

Sonic with 'mechanical enhancements'? Here's an idea - make Metal Sonic Classic.

EDIT: I'm sorry, I would actually greatly appreciate it if Hez or someone made Metal Sonic Classic.

Why I brought it up is because it's some random nonsense just like this is, and that isn't a bad thing. You are talking about this as though it's some kind of Dragon Ball Z homage, which... ok, I guess if you approach it from that point of view there are some minor similarities between Sonic donning the rough equivalent of a Tails suit and the fusing thing from Dragon Ball Z... not that similar things weren't done a thousand times before Dragon Ball Z did that.

But that really just brings me back around to why your notion of why this is wrong is jacked up in the first place. You keep talking about things appealing to kids as if that somehow made them wrong, but this is a series where you play as a cartoon animal. Back in the Genesis era, the series was regular pulling up silly homages to things like Star Wars and Dragon Ball Z, only they weren't mild things that could be construed as a reference by someone who was looking, they were very blatant.