[muteKi]

That's J-region TTZ, btw. Same key too I think. Always uncanny when that happens.

ALSO:
Green Hill Zone

(Nobody ever mentioned this, not even me? Wow.)

[Mercury]

Ooh goody, music comparison. I've personally noticed:

Caught in a Trap by ELO (sounds like Ice Cap, mixed with the second half of Marble Zone)

Zelda Minish Cap Opening (sounds like Sound Test 10)

Love Almost by Dandy Warhols (sounds like that Sonic Rush Adventure song, I forget which one)

Plus, someone has made a mash-up midi of 1000 Miles by Vanessa Carlton and Endless Mine here. It's listed under Sonic 3, just scroll down.

Also, I just have to answer this:

Don't Stop Til You Get Enough - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_hz2am90Hk
Wanna Be Startin Something Sped Up (The bassline will sound very similar if the tracks are tempo and key-synced) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPTsmswQVwg
Mystic Caves 2 Player - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhZzANSpUNk

Michael Jackson wasn't involved in Sonic 2, but this song is more stylistically similar to MJ than anything we have on him for Sonic 3. I wonder if maybe Nakamura didn't compose this song though, as it was shafted to a 2P theme and replaced with what Sound Test 10 is now. It's possible someone there was a Jackson nut, and if we can find a bit more evidence, we might be able to confirm whoevers theory that Nakamura didn't write ALL the music in Sonic 2, or at the very least that Mystic Caves 2P was a placeholder track.

Take it from someone who has heard Dreams Come True's entire career several times over that Mystic Caves 2P is Masa. He actually has quite a few MJ sounding songs, as both artists make pop music born out of the EWF, Quincy Jones, etc scene from the 70's.

This post has been edited by Mercury: 18 July 2009 - 01:02 PM

[nineko]

Pffft, there are over nine thousands of songs which sound like Ice Cap, that chord progression has been used by every musician and their moms. I personally found Ice Cap in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tmGuHDoGXg.

[Shadix]

Pffft, there are over nine thousands of songs which sound like Ice Cap, that chord progression has been used by every musician and their moms. I personally found Ice Cap in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tmGuHDoGXg.

and yet, we all use a comparison to a song that doesn't use that chord progression at all as inreconsilable proof that michael jackson wrote music for Sonic 3. (yes I'm talking about Who Is It.)

[Tweaker]

Who Is It doesn't really sound that much like Ice Cap and I'm not too sure why people always thought it did—it doesn't follow a similar chord progression to Ice Cap unless it's transposed, and even then it's still not exact. Brilliant song, though.

Shade always said that Ice Cap was supposed to be Smooth Criminal; while I can notice the similarities he pointed out, I was still never really convinced that there was any direct inspiration derived from the song. What does everyone else think?

[Shadix]

Who Is It doesn't really sound that much like Ice Cap and I'm not too sure why people always thought it did—it doesn't follow a similar chord progression to Ice Cap unless it's transposed, and even then it's still not exact. Brilliant song, though.

Shade always said that Ice Cap was supposed to be Smooth Criminal; while I can notice the similarities he pointed out, I was still never really convinced that there was any direct inspiration derived from the song. What does everyone else think?

Really, also, saying the chord progressions are even remotely similar is a misnomer as well. Just because it happens to contain the same chords in the same key doesn't mean they're related at all, or else you could say that any song in the key of C minor is Ice Cap Zone. A simple I - iv chord progression can't even begin to be compared to what goes on in Ice Cap Zone


Who Is It
I - iv - I - iv - I - iv - vii

Ice Cap Zone
I - VII - VI - v7 - I - III - VII


Whats happening here, is if you put these both in the same key and match the tempos.

Who Is It
Cm Fm Cm Fm Cm Fm Bbm

Ice Cap Zone
Cm Bb Ab Gm7 Cm Eb Bb


The chords stack together creating a new chord progression. A Bb major chord is composed of Bb, D, and F. Because F is the 5th of Bb, the chord tones of the Fm chord are actually serving as extention tones to the Bb chord.

The new chord is Bb, D, F, Gm, C, which interval wise makes it a Bb9. You can do this backwards too, however the chord namings are going to get more complex.

Now lets look at the Cm and the Ab Major.

Ab = Ab, C, Eb
Cm = C, Eb, G
New chord = Ab, C, Eb, G

See where I'm going here? The Cm merely adds a 7th to the Ab chord.


Fm = F, Ab, B
Gm7 = G, Bb, D, F

This chord is rather dissonant, because it adds a flatted 9th and a suspended 4th onto the Gm7 chord.

Cm = Cm

Fm = F, Ab, C
Eb = Eb G, Bb
New Chord = F, Ab, C, Eb, g, Bb

This one has a complex name if we keep basing the chord progression off the chord from ice cap with the extension tones add by the chords from who is it, however if you look at from the other perspective it just an Fm11th chord, as once again the Eb builds extension tones on top of the Fm.


Bb = Bbm

Another point of dissonance, due to the fact that the thirds clash. The chord can actually be named, it's just when you start messing with stuff like this chord naming gets ridiculous.

The two clashing chords are why people who listen to it even layered on top of each can be skeptical of the comparison. The fact that besides that the chords build on each other is the reason why it sounds like they mesh when layered on top of each other, not because they are musically similar in any way.


As far as Smooth Criminal goes, while the comparison is uncanny, it can't be used as proof of MJ's involvement, because of the fact that even still that chord progression is extremely common, and Ice Cap, unlike Carnival Night, is composed in a completely different style than the song it's being compared to. Ice Cap is flat out composed in trance\techno\house style. straightforward, no syncopation, arranged by the entry and removal of individual parts. The modular arrangement is why it's such an easy song to remix.

That said, Ice Cap does sounds an awfully lot like that ELO song that was linked a few posts up, texturally, chord wise, and stylistically.

However, because of this similarity are we assuming that ELO composed the song or that the song was plagiarized\inspired by them? No, because it would be baseless and we would have absolutely zero evidence to prove that was the case. It's the same thing here.

Now, in defense of the Jam comparison, as you can see that by my trail of logic it should dismiss this as well. It has more merit, due to the fact that the style of the section in question is identical, and now we've discovered that sample A0, which is the sample used for the hits in that section of Carnival Night, is actually a downsampled, detuned clip taken from the same section of Jam. You can actually hear low-fi Heavy D saying "Jam" in the sample in Carnival Night.

This post has been edited by Shadix: 19 July 2009 - 12:44 AM

[evilhamwizard]

I'm going to go back on my It Takes 2 VS Sonic 3 Mini Boss argument with an actual audio compare.

GET A LOAD OF THIS

The vocals match perfectly with this part of the song, it's a match. And it uses the "hey/hoo" thing too, but not the same sample. This might actually be a combination of other songs as well, but I can't put my finger on what they could be. The Knuckles theme sample is Brad Buxer's, so he might've had something to do with this.

The mini boss piece itself is probably the strangest of all. It definitely matches with It Takes 2/Some James Brown song (which IT2 sampled actually, but you can tell whomever composed this piece wanted to use It Takes 2 as part of the song). There are also some weird sound effect that simulates the sound of when Sonic Jumps (plus the ring collection sound) in the beginning of the song. I guess you can call it - "Sonic versus Hip Hop style".

Hope this was interesting.

This post has been edited by evilhamwizard: 19 July 2009 - 12:38 AM

[Shadix]

I'm going to go back on my It Takes 2 VS Sonic 3 Mini Boss argument with an actual audio compare.

GET A LOAD OF THIS

The vocals match perfectly with this part of the song, it's a match. And it uses the "hey/hoo" thing too, but not the same sample. This might actually be a combination of other songs as well, but I can't put my finger on what they could be. The Knuckles theme sample is Brad Buxer's, so he might've had something to do with this.

Hope this was interesting.

Yeah, another cute part about Brad Buxer is that he also did the audio work behind Blood on the Dancefloor, where the Knuckles Beat is flat out sampled in the middle of the song.

Regarding the music, yeah, you'll find that alot of those samples with the heys, whos, chants, were used all over the place in that era of music in the 90s. The whole New Jack Swing era. I love It Takes 2

[muteKi]

Given that the song immediately after Who Is It on the Dangerous album -- Give in to Me -- has a chord progression that sounds more like that of Ice Cap, it seemed odd to compare those two.

It's also a little closer to ICZ's melody too, not surprisingly.



Of course, I don't on my own take Jam samples as definitive proof that MJ had anything to do with the final music in Sonic 3 any more than the existence of the amen break means that The Winstons secretly composed all the music for Sonic Rush Adventure. (That said, I believe, as Roger Hector said, he had composed songs for Sonic 3 and I actually think these songs probably were used as the bases for some of the final songs.)

ALSO

Love Almost by Dandy Warhols (sounds like that Sonic Rush Adventure song, I forget which one)

Sonic Rush's theme song, A New Day. (NOT SRA)

But a few other things come to mind, like Vitamin C's vacation, and even some other songs from other Sonic games, including the following:
Let the Speed Mend It
Sonic Heroes Special Stage
Metal Harbor: That's the Way I Like It (well, to a point)
A few more depending on whether or not you consider the first chord major or minor (it's intentionally ambiguous), and how you voice the succeeding ones.

This post has been edited by muteKi: 19 July 2009 - 06:24 PM

[Phos]

The thing that I think really makes Ice Cap Zone sound like "Who is it" for me are those long samples Ice Cap Zone has. Whenever you speed up a recording, it tends to add distortions, especially to vocals. Those samples have similar distortions, they make that part of the song sound cold. More significantly, they also are louder during the equivalent time as the words that Jackson emphasizes, and they also seem to begin and end with each line.

This post has been edited by Phos: 20 July 2009 - 03:06 PM

[Vendettagainst]

Who Is It doesn't really sound that much like Ice Cap and I'm not too sure why people always thought it did—it doesn't follow a similar chord progression to Ice Cap unless it's transposed, and even then it's still not exact. Brilliant song, though.

Shade always said that Ice Cap was supposed to be Smooth Criminal; while I can notice the similarities he pointed out, I was still never really convinced that there was any direct inspiration derived from the song. What does everyone else think?

Really, also, saying the chord progressions are even remotely similar is a misnomer as well. Just because it happens to contain the same chords in the same key doesn't mean they're related at all, or else you could say that any song in the key of C minor is Ice Cap Zone. A simple I - iv chord progression can't even begin to be compared to what goes on in Ice Cap Zone


Who Is It
I - iv - I - iv - I - iv - vii

Ice Cap Zone
I - VII - VI - v7 - I - III - VII


Whats happening here, is if you put these both in the same key and match the tempos.

Who Is It
Cm Fm Cm Fm Cm Fm Bbm

Ice Cap Zone
Cm Bb Ab Gm7 Cm Eb Bb


The chords stack together creating a new chord progression. A Bb major chord is composed of Bb, D, and F. Because F is the 5th of Bb, the chord tones of the Fm chord are actually serving as extention tones to the Bb chord.

The new chord is Bb, D, F, Gm, C, which interval wise makes it a Bb9. You can do this backwards too, however the chord namings are going to get more complex.

Now lets look at the Cm and the Ab Major.

Ab = Ab, C, Eb
Cm = C, Eb, G
New chord = Ab, C, Eb, G

See where I'm going here? The Cm merely adds a 7th to the Ab chord.


Fm = F, Ab, B
Gm7 = G, Bb, D, F

This chord is rather dissonant, because it adds a flatted 9th and a suspended 4th onto the Gm7 chord.

Cm = Cm

Fm = F, Ab, C
Eb = Eb G, Bb
New Chord = F, Ab, C, Eb, g, Bb

This one has a complex name if we keep basing the chord progression off the chord from ice cap with the extension tones add by the chords from who is it, however if you look at from the other perspective it just an Fm11th chord, as once again the Eb builds extension tones on top of the Fm.


Bb = Bbm

Another point of dissonance, due to the fact that the thirds clash. The chord can actually be named, it's just when you start messing with stuff like this chord naming gets ridiculous.

The two clashing chords are why people who listen to it even layered on top of each can be skeptical of the comparison. The fact that besides that the chords build on each other is the reason why it sounds like they mesh when layered on top of each other, not because they are musically similar in any way.


As far as Smooth Criminal goes, while the comparison is uncanny, it can't be used as proof of MJ's involvement, because of the fact that even still that chord progression is extremely common, and Ice Cap, unlike Carnival Night, is composed in a completely different style than the song it's being compared to. Ice Cap is flat out composed in trance\techno\house style. straightforward, no syncopation, arranged by the entry and removal of individual parts. The modular arrangement is why it's such an easy song to remix.

That said, Ice Cap does sounds an awfully lot like that ELO song that was linked a few posts up, texturally, chord wise, and stylistically.

However, because of this similarity are we assuming that ELO composed the song or that the song was plagiarized\inspired by them? No, because it would be baseless and we would have absolutely zero evidence to prove that was the case. It's the same thing here.

Now, in defense of the Jam comparison, as you can see that by my trail of logic it should dismiss this as well. It has more merit, due to the fact that the style of the section in question is identical, and now we've discovered that sample A0, which is the sample used for the hits in that section of Carnival Night, is actually a downsampled, detuned clip taken from the same section of Jam. You can actually hear low-fi Heavy D saying "Jam" in the sample in Carnival Night.

I actually though the beginning of Blood On The Dance Floor sounds a bit like Ice Cap, the same chords that were "the same" as Who Is It. (The Synth Strings, I think, at the beginning.) I think it might just be a common pop chord progression.

Oh, and I don't hear any resemblance between Green Hill and Blinded By The Light.

[Mercury]

Oh, and I don't hear any resemblance between Green Hill and Blinded By The Light.

I think it's supposed to be the piano at the beginning is reminiscent of the GH bassline.

Some obvious ones:

Back2Back (Sonic Rush) - Louie Louie

Machine Labyrinth (SRA) - La Bamba

[Ashram]

Megaman Zero 2 - Awakening Will
Sonic the Movie - South Island Theme
The first part of Awakening Will sounds just like that song, without the lead. On a sidenote, the second part sounds a bit like His World.

EDIT: Cinossu's version of it goes with it a bit better, in case you can't hear the similarity...

I'd just like to point out (Along with necroing this thread) that Sonic the Movie was made loooooooong before Mega Man Zero, so any similarities would be completely unintentional.

Plus, you should have used the remastered version of Awakening Will.

[Herm the Germ]

I'd just like to point out (Along with necroing this thread) that Sonic the Movie was made loooooooong before Mega Man Zero, so any similarities would be completely unintentional.

Who's to say III (MMZ composer, apparently) didn't base that slightly off the Sonic the Movie song instead? ... hey, it could be.

[bx5bt]

I found a connection between "Metropolis Zone from Sonic 2" and "We are here to change the world by Michael Jackson" which was made before Sonic. I personally believe this was purposely done as a subtle way of paying homage (which isn't uncommon between musicians).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUxk2adMtWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRuJfhEeCe8

The similar bits are: a FEW seconds from Jackson's song @1:35 and part of Metropolis Zone's beat (espeically the intro) & the chorus of Jackson's song and a small segment from Metropolis Zone @0:35.

Either way, Metropolis Zone is a FANTASTIC theme and the best parts of it are its MAIN melodyline (which is not referenced in this comparision), and its MAIN bassline which almost sounds like a stylish variation of Green Hill Zone (which makes it sound even more awesome than it already is), along with the cute scratching sfx throughout.